[Kungsgeten]

I've been thinking about the merits of using 1S-1N as a inv+ relay. This is in a forcing club context where 1S is 11--16 hcp with 5+ spades and denies 5 hearts (5-5 majors opens 1H). The 2S opening shows 10--13 hcp and 6+ spades. The 1NT opening shows 14--16 hcp and may have a five card major.

The structure over 1S--1N would look like this:

2C = any unbal minimum (about 11--13 hcp)
2D = balanced (11--13 hcp), three-suited (5440, still 11--16) or spade single suiter (14--16 hcp)
2H = 4+ clubs, extras
2S = 4 diamonds, extras
2N = 5+ diamonds, extras
3C+ = 4 hearts, extras

After 1S-1N; 2m responder relays with a GF and bids something else with invitational values. The meaning of this invitational rebid would depend on the alternative responses to 1S.

Here's some ideas:

1S--
pass = may have up to 8 hcp if holding 2 card support for spades
1N = relay as explained above
2C = non-forcing take-out of spades, 0--1 spades. Perhaps it is just better to pass with this hand and use 2C for something else?
2D = 5+ hearts, 8+ hcp or 6 hearts weak? An alternative would be 2-card spade support and 9--13 hcp (Auken-Welland play this)
2H = Could be some sort of raise, perhaps 8+ hcp, or a two-way raise like weak or GF. Could also be natural if 2D doesn't show hearts.
2S = Depends on other raises
2N = inv+ with fit
3X = Do not know. 3m could be invitational, but these hands could also go via 1NT. Mixed raise, limit raise and preemptive raise might be an alternative.

[dake50]

Tried a similar approach.
Trying to keep a "grab-it 1Nt",
2C was a trump ask, relay asks or picture raise stepping out.
2D was to explore other suits for fit/size.

[Zelandakh]

I have used 1♠ - 1NT as an INV+ relay for some time now but with the added twist that 1♠ does not contain any balanced hands. This avoids overloading of the relays, which tends to occur after a 1♠ opening if you also want to split up Opener's range. My schedule runs:

1♠
==
1NT = INV+ relay
2♣♦♥ = natural and non-forcing
2♠ = weak raise
2NT = mini-splinter or maxi-splinter
3♣ = GF raise
3♦ = limit raise
3♥ = mixed raise
3♠ = PRE
3NT = void splinter
4♣♦♥ = singleton splinter

--

1♠ - 1NT
==
2♣ = min without 4 hearts
2♦ = 4+ hearts
2♥ = max with 4+ clubs
2♠ = max, 1-suited
2NT = max, 5+ diamonds
3♣ = max, 5♠4♦
3♦ = max, 6043/6142
3♥ = max, 6241
3♠ = max, 6340
3NT+ = max, 7+♠4♦

As with your scheme, the next step after a 2♣ or 2♦ response is game-forcing and other minimum rebids are invitational. The idea of the new suit rebids is to find a 7 card suit and stop unless a good fit is found and the hands can thus be upgraded. These non-forcing bids put pressure on the opponents at a time when it is not clear who the hand belongs to. It also means that an auction like 1♠ - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♥ is completely natural, no need for fourth suit forcing. The way I play it the second suit (hearts) can, and indeed here is expected to be, longer than the first (clubs). The suits are bid up-the-line to maximise the chance of stopping safely in a playable spot.

This is obviously less cool than the transfers and exclusion responses suggested but imho works significantly better in practise. Notice also that the relay gives you a form of Drury through the back door via 1♠ - 1NT; 2m - 2♠ so methods that grant a 3 card limit raise by, for example, using 2♥ for the purpose have less benefit than in other response structures. An additional side-effect is that the structure makes opening light a little safer than in standard which meshes well with the limited openings.

[Kungsgeten]

The thing I find most troubling about using 1N as a relay is partscore hands, and hands where opener is max and responder hold constructive (but not purely invitational) values. We've played Moscito before and it was a constant fight to find a 5-2 fit at the two-level The best thing about a negative NT with natural responses is that responder may choose contracts and opener may even get the chance to bid a third time with exceptional distribution.

Do your 2-level responses show any values at all or are they only looking for sign off in a fit?

I was thinking that 2C as take-out of spades would have about the same consequences as a forcing NT. This could show about 7-10 hcp. Having a constructive two-card raise also seems like a good idea, especially if it allows us to find a potential 4-4 heart fit.

Playing 2/1 GF might work out best for us after all, but we have a nice optional relay structure over 1D and I've designed one over 1H too, so I was starting to think about having one over 1S also. Ofcourse using 2C as a relay is possible but in order to make it symmetric with the other openings we would have to remove the ability yo show min or max, which I quite like.

[Zelandakh]

Sorry Kunsgeten, looks like I missed this reply somewhere along the way. The weak responses show the usual weak responding range, so ~6-10. Opener can pass with a minimum, invite with a maximum or go to game with a super-maximum just the same as usual. Finding a 4-4 heart fit is pretty easy here - with weak hands the suits are bid up the line so as soon as someone bids hearts it is found; and with invitational or better hands Opener shows hearts as their first priority (1♠ - 1NT; 2♦). The only time this does not work is when Responder is weak and we find a different fit first and stop. In that case though the opps must have either a huge fit or a double fit together with at least half the deck so stealing the contract low is not such a bad thing. You are right that the invitational hand with 2 spades is not always a great one for the system. I play 1♠ - 1NT; 2m - 2♠ as 3 card support so those hands have to find a different rebid. If they cannot bid a suit at the 2 level here then they are forced into 2NT. That is not necessarily worse than playing 2♠ in a 5-2 fit but there are definitely times when 2♠ would be preferable.

Anyway, I thought this might be able to form the basis for what you were looking for here. But it might be that it would require too many changes to match, especially if you need to include balanced hands into the 1♠ opening.

[Trick13]

We are successfully using a 1NT relay (8+) in the context of 16+♣, 11-15 1♠, 11-13 NT which can contain weak 5♠.

After 1♠:
1NT = inquiry
2♣ = ambiguous relay
2♦ = ambiguous relay
2♥ = ambiguous relay
2♠ = 10-11 usually 4♠
2NT = Jacoby
3x = mini splinters etc

The ambiguous relays are on these lines:
1♠ - 2♣: demands 2♦ unless opener has a bit of a freak, and shows:
weak (0-7) with ♦: pass 2♦
support (10-11) with 4+♣: rebid 2♠
balanced (12-13) with 5♣: rebid 2NT
rebid anything else over 2♦, including 3♠, is GF


After 1♠ - 1NT inquiry:
2♣ = any min (11-13) not 6♠ nor 4♥
2♦ = any max (14-15)
2♥ = min 4♥
2♠ = min 6♥
3x = max very good 2-suiter
3♠ = max very good ♠

So we can often play in 2m (when the opponents let us).


Same structure over 1♥: 1♠ is the inquiry, and 1NT = weak in ♣ or strong in ♠, etc.

[Zelandakh]

How do you bid a min Opener 53(14) or 54(04) opposite a weak 1444? It seems like the options are pass (play 1♠); 1NT (finds hearts opp 54(04) but something silly opp 54(13); or 2♣ (play 2♦ that might be 4-0). I guess there is another part to this I am missing though.

[Trick13]

 Zelandakh, on 2014-May-12, 06:06, said:

How do you bid a min Opener 53(14) or 54(04) opposite a weak 1444? It seems like the options are pass (play 1♠); 1NT (finds hearts opp 54(04) but something silly opp 54(13); or 2♣ (play 2♦ that might be 4-0). I guess there is another part to this I am missing though.

Yes that would be awkward (it may have arisen once in the last 6 months). With no game interest and no long suit we will pass, otherwise we will respond 1NT. We will always find ♥s, but if opener is min and responds 2♣ we will have to guess between 2♠ in a 5-1, 2m in a 4-?, or 2NT.