BBO Discussion Forums: Against strong club - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Against strong club

#21 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,519
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2013-December-21, 15:57

View Postgnasher, on 2013-December-20, 03:37, said:

3. Did somebody really mention pass?


I think pass is much much better than this thread is giving it credit.

Let's start with 3. I ran a simple simulation, only constraint is East has at least 16hcp. The average par score was -576, the average score in 3X was -520. That's awfully close: while my opponents don't defend perfectly against 3X, they are much worse at bidding to par (doubly dummy par!), even when undisturbed. If the opponents are just mildly good at guess when to pass 3X, of when to pass 3 undoubled, they will gain. A lot of IMPS. For example, under the highly sophisticated constraint "Neither East nor West has shortness", our average score in 3X becomes -553, while the average par score becomes -393. And obviously, our average still contains many 3CX making (not that rare), in which case opponents will often just pass out 3, or get to double 4X or X.

You would have to gain a lot from pushing them to wrong contracts, or causing partner to make the right lead, in order to make up for this. I don't see it.

While they be able to double 3? The will often be endplayed into it: LHO makes a double showing some range of values with not much shape, RHO is balanced and can't do anything but pass. Do these numbers look realistic? Obviously, we will often be -800, and we don't need much from partner to stop them from making slam. Give LHO a hand where they make slam, swap it into partner's seat, and I don't see them making game, nor getting there.

(To add some context to the stats: they make some game 77% of the time. They make 4S 62% of the time. I can add more statistics counter if anyone thinks they would help. The above numbers are based on 500 hands.)

Now what about bidding 2? That doesn't cause them much trouble. In fact, on some hands it will make their auction more accurate: RHO will get to make a takeout double with 4432, and they play 2M in a 4-4 fit rather than 1N. They will find their spade fit when they have one most of the time. It will sometimes cause them to misguess hearts, but more often will help them to guess the spade suit, or to strip squeeze me into leading away from the heart queen. We aren't worried about stealing them a level to obstruct their slam bidding, since they are unlikely to have (a biddable) one. We are unlikely to buy the contract (neither constructively nor as a save).

On the other hand, bidding 2 doesn't cause much harm either. Plus, it may get partner off to the right lead.
Isn't all that more or less a wash?
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
1

#22 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,366
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2013-December-24, 14:03

I think you have to bid some number of s. Strong 1 systems open a much wider set of hands 1 than do strong and artificial 2 bidders. So anytime you can quickly get the bidding to 2 or above, you're forcing them to use the same bidding space strong 2 bidders use to sort out where they belong for a lot more hands. It exerts a lot of pressure on them and has to make it more difficult for them to find the optimum spot.

NV vs. VUL, as here, I'm bidding 3 . At other vulnerabilities, I'll just bid 2 .
1

#23 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,519
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2013-December-24, 18:02

P.S.: Of course I wouldn't pass. 2 for me.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
0

#24 User is offline   wanoff 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 354
  • Joined: 2012-February-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Birmingham,UK

Posted 2013-December-25, 12:37

Not totally happy about the vul. but don't want to waste an opportunity to wheel out 2 showing spades or clubs.
Opponents may not know what they're doing and/or it may stop a relay sequence.
1

#25 User is offline   dake50 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,211
  • Joined: 2006-April-22

Posted 2013-December-25, 18:00

2C is really clear for me. I don't think this really gives
the opponents that much information about the hand, -- awm
North or South "I'm borderline for a slam try but I have no
wasted Club honors, I'll try."
Gets opponents to the "we told you so" slam. Do you really
think taking the 1-level away hampers them? Much?
I have DQ so unlikely partner's D-lead blows our defense;
even HJ saves a blown trick in hearts.
So, no need to insist on a club lead.
Little gain. Just bidding because it's my turn against
their high-powered 1C opener.
0

#26 User is offline   benlessard 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,465
  • Joined: 2006-January-07
  • Location:Montreal Canada
  • Interests:All games. i really mean all of them.

Posted 2013-December-27, 19:29

2C is WTP, 3C is surely EV- vs decent opps.

I would even say that pass is better than 3C.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
0

#27 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2013-December-29, 03:03

I'd bid 2, 3 would be too aggressive.

Some claim to bid 1 but that's suicidal. However, there's an alternative if you want to mess around with opps: 1NT. You actually have both minors (9+ cards), you bring in s for partner to raise, s would still play decently because of the singleton , you take away more bidding space than 1 and you don't take the risk of partner raising aggressively in a suit you don't have.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users