[eagles123]

the hog, on 2013-December-02, 18:04, said:

This is incorrect. South has a normal 2H bid. Nth overbid and why Nth bid 3S rather than 3H is anyone's guess.

Maybe cos I make mistakes and am learning the game?

[nigel_k]

North did stretch a little and 3♥ would have been a better choice 3♠. I suppose two eight card fits is literally a 'double fit' but is nothing to get too excited about. The 4333 is not an problem though when partner has shape. It's really just a general lack of high cards that is the problem.

North was a bit unlucky to strike such an unsuitable South hand. Opposite something like AQxxx Kxxx x Axx 4♥ could make when their 3♦ also makes. It's also unlucky to go for -500 when they have no game, though -200 would have been almost as bad. What was the full layout?

[mike777]

I don't really think 3h is a stretch guys.


2h is either

extras
full opener=decent 6 loser hand
wide range bid=dead minimum to extras

game is cold on many hands based on above.

[mike777]

btw someone asked me why play constructive raises.

For me 8-11 total points and 3s spades it too little to make a limit raise across what pard opens on.

with a bit less or a bit more I start with 1nt.

I should add that of course this is all part of Bergen style and the"law"

If you don't like Bergen or the law ..you wont like this.

[rmnka447]

Unless N/S are playing a raise to 2 ♠ as constructive, I think North's first bid should be 2 ♠. If they are playing the raise as constructive, then a forcing NT intending to rebid 2 ♠ is correct. Since there is no mention of constructive raises by OP, I going to assign the bulk of the blame to North.

I also disagree with South's 2 ♥ free bid. The South hand is an absolute minimum opener because the doubleton ♣ QJ are in no way worth anywhere near full value. While you would like to show the 4 ♥s, freely bidding on such a minimum makes it very difficult for responder to make sensible bidding decisions later in the auction. This is especially true at MPs where -1 doubled vulnerable is the kiss of death on part score hands.

If you want to insist that the 2 ♥ bid is fine, then responder has to take that possibility into account and have a correspondingly stronger hand to compete further.

[helene_t]

rmnka447, on 2013-December-10, 16:53, said:

Unless N/S are playing a raise to 2 ♠ as constructive, I think North's first bid should be 2 ♠.

Playing Acol, partner will expect 4-card support and/or some ruffing value for a direct raise.

BTW 1NT is not forcing in Acol.

[aguahombre]

The criticism of South's 2H rebid is unwarranted. That was his normal rebid, and a basic tenet is that a call which did not interfere with our auction should not interfere with our auction.

With a forcing NT, a 2C bid in-between will relieve us of a 2D response on 3 of them ---but this is not the OP situation.

In a 5cM style, North's initial response should have been 2S; there is no agreement in the OP about Constructive Raises, so any rot which set in after failure to bid 2S is all on North.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2013-December-02, 17:15, said:

4-4 doesn't play better than 5-3 neccesarily, it does so on this case because the 5 card suit gets tapped and you lose control, and spades breaks 4-1.

4-4 does play generaly better than 5-3 when your side has big control of the hand and makes 10+ tricks. Also on low level hands where they can only force one hand to ruff and so the other can control the trumps.

An example of why 4-4 is often better than 5-3 would be this:

Axx, AKxx, Axx, Axx

KQJxx, QJxx, xx, xx

Played in spades you have 11 obvious tricks and no chance of a 12th, played in hearts, as long as hearts are 3-2, you have 12 easy tricks. Basically unless you can take a ruff in the short hand in the 5-3, taking a ruff in either hand in the 4-4 may well earn you an extra trick.

Fluffy is also right about the control aspects.

[helene_t]

North has all his points in South's suits so it is ok to bid although I think 3♥ is better. Not only because 4-4 tends to play better than 5-3 but also because S is probably more likely to be 5-5 than 6-4.

It was very unlucky that you went for -500, and at MP it is not the end of the World. Usually this kind of actions lead to -100 instead of -110, or to a make, or you push opps to 4♦-1.

Raising spades directly solves this kind of headaches but I am not sure if I would recomend that style for Acol players. Opener will make at least a game try with a balanced 16-count so your direct raise has to be a bit better than this North hand.

[Wackojack]

helene_t, on 2013-December-11, 03:18, said:

Playing Acol, partner will expect 4-card support and/or some ruffing value for a direct raise.

BTW 1NT is not forcing in Acol.

Many acol players will raise on 3 card support for the major even with 4333. A couple of years ago David Bakshi wrote an article in the EBU mag extolling the virtues of of raising to the 2 level with 3 card support when playing the weak no trump. I cannot remember the exact date.
Main points:
1. More than 9 times out of 10 opener will have 5 spades and this forces opps to come in often at a level higher.
2. If opener has a 4 card suit he will also have 15+ HCP and so is protected.
3. Preference responses will always be 2 cards and this is often very important for opener to know with game interest hands.

I believe that this is the way modern acol should be played.

You can see on the actual example hand that after 1♠-p-2♠ the opps are much less likely to intervene and without seeing the opps cards playing in 2♠ undoubled looks like a match point winning contract.

[Zelandakh]

Raising the major with 3 card support is normal (in Acol). For me the best road is to raise with 3 and a weak hand unless 4333. See arguments in previous threads for playing 5332 opposite 4333 in NT and this also helps Opener not to misjudge the offensive potential of the hand.

[MrAce]

I blame % 100 constructive 2M raises, especially when they do not make much of a sense at MP, because this is a treatment to solve more about finding borderline games. At MP you can easily live without it, as some of us easily live without it even at IMPs. But that's my personal opinion. (The hands where you bid 1 NT and then 2M pd does not even know if you have a fit, but i admit this also may become advantage sometimes, because opponents also don't know this, hence they balance less when your side has 8 card fit and about to play 2M) I strongly suggest N/B players not to focus on borderline games at MP and stay as low as you can.

2♠ by N would make it probably an uncontested auction ending in playing 2M, or at least N would not feel the necessity of bidding at 3 level again.

Assuming that you play 1 NT forcing or semi forcing, bidding 3♠ now at 3 level raises a question; "How would you bid with 10 hcp and 3 card support and lets say no heart support" ? How is pd supposed to know the 5-6 hcp difference ? If you had a way to show 3 card support limit raise hands previously via different bid, then disregard all i said. But then again imo you are playing too many treatments for N/B level.

[the_clown]

the hog, on 2013-December-02, 18:04, said:

This is incorrect. South has a normal 2H bid. Nth overbid and why Nth bid 3S rather than 3H is anyone's guess.

Sry I cant see how North overbid, with double fit and all his points in partner suits passing 3♦ would be pretty bad IMHO. I agree 3♥ is better than 3♠.

While I see that getting hearts into the picture is very important, I dont think its such idea to bid with such a subminimum hand. Even if you bid 2♥ with any hand holding 4+ hearts, 3♥ will make opposite many hands as others pointed out.

Edit: Looking at South's hand again, it doesn't look so bad to me now, it is not terrible 13 count. But if you opened with AJxxx Axxx Qx xx I think you should pass.

[HighLow21]

1NT was ridiculous; so was 3♠. 2♥ was fairly bad but not that bad.

[Wackojack]

In spite of the 4333 shape and it being match point, I believe that North in Acol should raise to 2♠ immediately.

1. If you are bid-up-the-line school then the odds that the spade opening is a 4 carder is infinesimal. If you always open the 4 card major with a 4 card minor the odds of it being 4 cards are still quite small. (Remember that if opener does have 4 spades it will be in the 15-19 range)

2. The raise to 2♠ cuts out opps 2 level overcall.

3. In the unlikely event of a 4 card 1♠ opener, the 4-3 fit still has a good chance of outscoring a 2 level contract by the opps.

[1eyedjack]

I think a lot of it is down to bad luck. As it turns out QJ of Clubs is worth nil points.

You are somewhat under the cosh due to the type of scoring. If they think that they are making 3D they are under a lot of pressure to double 3S, not necessarily with the intention of getting 500. That was a bonus. But converting 100 to 200 makes a huge difference in MP in a partscore battle. That is really why you need to be circumspect about contesting the partscore at the 3 level at this vul at MP.

I just say well done to West.

[Cyberyeti]

Wackojack, on 2014-February-25, 08:57, said:

In spite of the 4333 shape and it being match point, I believe that North in Acol should raise to 2♠ immediately.

1. If you are bid-up-the-line school then the odds that the spade opening is a 4 carder is infinesimal. If you always open the 4 card major with a 4 card minor the odds of it being 4 cards are still quite small. (Remember that if opener does have 4 spades it will be in the 15-19 range)

2. The raise to 2♠ cuts out opps 2 level overcall.

3. In the unlikely event of a 4 card 1♠ opener, the 4-3 fit still has a good chance of outscoring a 2 level contract by the opps.

As somebody who's played Acol all his life, I'd never bid 2♠ on that flat heap. Even if partner has 5♠ I have no reason to suppose the contract will play better there, opposite a 5233 15, 1N could easily be the last making spot (AQJxx, 10x, Axx, Axx for example), admittedly opps are cold for 2m, but they're by no means guaranteed to bid one if both are 4-3 and -90 is better than 2♠-1 anyway.

Bidding 3♥ rather than 3♠ is however very obvious.