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support doubles...

#1 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2013-December-20, 06:05

Which of the following penalty oriented?, which are support or take out?

Assume a 5543 system (Even when that is impossible, but assume it does)

A
1♣-p-1♠-1NT (nat)
X

B
1♣-p-1♠-2♣ (nat)
X

C
1♦-p-1♠-2♦ (nat)
X

D
1♥-p-1♠-2♥ (nat!)
X

E
1♣-p-1♠-3♣ (nat)
X

F
1♦-p-1♠-3♦ (nat)
X

G
1♣-p-1♠-1NT (2 suiter)
X

H
1♣-p-1♠-2NT (2 suiter)
X
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#2 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2013-December-20, 07:46

For me:
Penalty(-ish): AEFH
Support: BCDG

Rik
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#3 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2013-December-20, 09:06

I vote "G"=support, B thru F penalty oriented, and A/H cooperative with typically a too-strong for 1NT opener (18+). The examples, except "G" should be high-risk to the frisky.
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#4 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2013-December-20, 10:30

Here is one more:
I.
1♣- 1♦ - 1♥- 1NT
DBL = ?
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#5 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2013-December-30, 23:17

Very tempting to vary meaning by context, but I'm not so sure it gains more than a simple "all are support". I've found playing support doubles over 3-level preempts by RHO works well (adjusting for required playing strength).

Even when RHO show 15-18 (1NT) responder is better placed to compete effectively knowing if opener has 0-2, 3, or 4 trumps. Penalty (18-0-6-16) is too small a target; competing to the 2-level accurately gains in frequency in these auctions.
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#6 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2013-December-31, 07:51

View PostTrinidad, on 2013-December-20, 07:46, said:

For me:
Penalty(-ish): AEFH
Support: BCDG

Rik


I agree with this, except for E. E will depend on your system. If you play a short club like me, I prefer E to be take-out.

Steven
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#7 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2013-December-31, 07:53

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-December-20, 10:30, said:

Here is one more:
I.
1♣- 1♦ - 1♥- 1NT
DBL = ?


Penalty (assuming 1nt is natural).

Steven
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#8 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2013-December-31, 12:48

Support double applies only below the 2-level, so EFH are out.
Auction G is support double - just like support redouble if RHO had made a takeout double.
Natural 1NT overcalls get doubled for penalty, so A is out.
That leaves BCD. I honestly have no idea what is standard (nor whether there is one). I think on BC takeout or support are most useful.
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#9 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2013-December-31, 15:54

This is all assuming a 2/1/sayc based natural system, like the OP implied.

A
1♣-p-1♠-1NT (nat)
X

Penalty for me (15+ HCP or tricks)

B
1♣-p-1♠-2♣ (nat)
X

Support

C
1♦-p-1♠-2♦ (nat)
X

Support

D
1♥-p-1♠-2♥ (nat!)
X

Support


E
1♣-p-1♠-3♣ (nat)
X

Penalty (I do not play support X's above 2 of the supported suit)


F
1♦-p-1♠-3♦ (nat)
X

Penalty (I do not play support X's above 2 of the supported suit)

G
1♣-p-1♠-1NT (2 suiter)
X

Support

H
1♣-p-1♠-2NT (2 suiter)
X

Extra values, no clear direction.
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#10 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2013-December-31, 17:27

For me:

A: extra values / penalty
B-D: support (almost always can pass to penalize and partner, marked with shortage, will double back in)
E-F: extra values; I don't play support doubles this high but these tend to imply more "convertible values" (like 18-19 balanced) than anything else
G-H: extras, defensive values -- generally I play unusual vs. unusual takes priority over support doubles in these situations
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#11 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2013-December-31, 17:58

I'm old school. If I bid a suit and then they bid my suit naturally, double says that I actually have that suit. Qxxx doesn't count.
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#12 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2014-January-08, 11:34

None of your examples follow the standard support double structure. It is usually 1 apple, pass by LHO, 1 orange(usually a major), 2 lemons. Now 2 oranges show four card support and double shows 3-card orange support.
A and G are similar to the support double structure. What percentage of players are playing support doubles on the three level?
If they bid my suit and I double, that is for penalties.
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