[gwnn]

So we just tried out Fantunes for the second time with my p and I opened something like Qx Axxx T9xx AQx with 1NT vulnerable 3rd seat and we went for 1400 (well defended: I scored the two aces for -5). Which led me to actually read the runout from the Fantunes book and it is:

1NT-x-?
pass=offering to play here, no 5-card suit
xx=5 clubs
2♣=5 diamonds
2♦=5 hearts
2♥=5 spades
2♠=5 spades, better hand

1NT-x-p-p
xx=scrambling, partner can pass with a good hand, showing 4-4 in two suits
2x=5 card suit

1NT-p-p-x
see 1NT-x-?, i.e. transfers from opener, scrambling xx by partner.

(The point being to put doubler on lead all of the time.)

This seems cute enough and we're not looking to change this. Please don't post your favourite runout scheme. What I am interested in is:
-how often should opener run in case it's doubled by 1st hand? Should this depend on table feel (from opponents)? In this case I knew for certain that LHO had a big hand and indeed he had 18. Should I also try to run on 4x3 hands? My gut says no.
-should responder bid his 3-card suits up the line in case opener redoubles for scrambling and he's 4333? Or should he only do so if he has like 4 spades and 333? How about when responder is 44(32), should he bid his minor first or should he just bid hearts and be done with it? My gut says let's keep bidding 4-card suits with the exception of 4♠333.

As an aside:
-yes I know I should have passed with this hand but I just didn't feel like passing this time. Add a jack or a ten and then I don't pass, so there. Fantunes has no weak twos and passes a lot of 10-11 counts so opening at least some of these hands seems quite important, even in 3rd seat. putting it in 1♣ or whatever is not an option we are interested in.
-I don't mind going for a number every now and then. I also don't think running to a 4-3 fit doubled is a better spot in general than 1NTx (do you agree?). Of course a 4-4 fit on the 2-level is usually much better - in this case it would have been -800 .
-I also know opening posts that give a lot of criteria on what responses are expected can get obnoxious. I'm just trying to save time, so again:
-please don't post your favourite runout scheme, we want to keep the one outlined above, I'm just curious on the details.

[Vampyr]

gwnn, on 2013-November-11, 08:23, said:

So we just tried out Fantunes for the second time with my p and I opened something like Qx Axxx T9xx AQx with 1NT vulnerable 3rd seat and we went for 1400 (well defended: I scored the two aces for -5). Which led me to actually read the runout from the Fantunes book and it is:

1NT-x-?
pass=offering to play here, no 5-card suit
xx=5 clubs
2♣=5 diamonds
2♦=5 hearts
2♥=5 spades
2♠=5 spades, better hand

1NT-x-p-p
xx=scrambling, partner can pass with a good hand, showing 4-4 in two suits
2x=5 card suit

1NT-p-p-x
see 1NT-x-?, i.e. transfers from opener, scrambling xx by partner.

(The point being to put doubler on lead all of the time.)

This seems cute enough and we're not looking to change this. Please don't post your favourite runout scheme. What I am interested in is:
-how often should opener run in case it's doubled by 1st hand? Should this depend on table feel (from opponents)? In this case I knew for certain that LHO had a big hand and indeed he had 18. Should I also try to run on 4x3 hands? My gut says no.
-should responder bid his 3-card suits up the line in case opener redoubles for scrambling and he's 4333? Or should he only do so if he has like 4 spades and 333? How about when responder is 44(32), should he bid his minor first or should he just bid hearts and be done with it? My gut says let's keep bidding 4-card suits with the exception of 4♠333.

As an aside:
-yes I know I should have passed with this hand but I just didn't feel like passing this time. Add a jack or a ten and then I don't pass, so there. Fantunes has no weak twos and passes a lot of 10-11 counts so opening at least some of these hands seems quite important, even in 3rd seat. putting it in 1♣ or whatever is not an option we are interested in.
-I don't mind going for a number every now and then. I also don't think running to a 4-3 fit doubled is a better spot in general than 1NTx (do you agree?). Of course a 4-4 fit on the 2-level is usually much better - in this case it would have been -800 .
-I also know opening posts that give a lot of criteria on what responses are expected can get obnoxious. I'm just trying to save time, so again:
-please don't post your favourite runout scheme, we want to keep the one outlined above, I'm just curious on the details.

[Zelandakh]

gwnn, on 2013-November-11, 08:23, said:

Which led me to actually read the runout from the Fantunes book and it is:

Having played Exit Transfers, I am confident that you will change your mind on them in time.

gwnn, on 2013-November-11, 08:23, said:

This seems cute enough and we're not looking to change this. Please don't post your favourite runout scheme. What I am interested in is:
-how often should opener run in case it's doubled by 1st hand? Should this depend on table feel (from opponents)? In this case I knew for certain that LHO had a big hand and indeed he had 18. Should I also try to run on 4x3 hands? My gut says no.

I think the basic idea is that Opener makes a call whenever they are not 4333. An exception should perhaps be made for a weak 5 card suit in a 5332 hand. This approach only really costs when we bid a 5 card suit and partner had values and they had nowhere to run to. What costs more are the times when we have game but cannot take the chance of it getting passed out in 1NTX. Because of this, it is (arguably) more common to play the pass as a "transfer" to redouble (with the option of bidding a 5 card suit). This probably gives up less than catering to the specific 4333 case.

gwnn, on 2013-November-11, 08:23, said:

-should responder bid his 3-card suits up the line in case opener redoubles for scrambling and he's 4333? Or should he only do so if he has like 4 spades and 333? How about when responder is 44(32), should he bid his minor first or should he just bid hearts and be done with it? My gut says let's keep bidding 4-card suits with the exception of 4♠333.

My Spevic trick might be helpful here. If you bid a 3 card club suit and then XX should 2♣X come back, this shows a (43)33 hand. Partner will now know what to do. The only thing you give up here is the ability to show a 4441 hand with this sequence. But 2♦ will work just fine here because we are guaranteed of finding a fit somewhere, so in reality this approach gives up nothing. You should include the 3433 hands here too in case partner has 3244.

gwnn, on 2013-November-11, 08:23, said:

-I don't mind going for a number every now and then. I also don't think running to a 4-3 fit doubled is a better spot in general than 1NTx (do you agree?). Of course a 4-4 fit on the 2-level is usually much better - in this case it would have been -800 .

Most of the time a 4-3 fit breaks even but might be harder to double if the trumps are breaking 3-3, depending on the level of the opps. 2♦X will probably be worse if the hands are 4333. On the other hand you have a pretty good chance of finding an 8 card fit if you show two specific 4-card suits and I think that is almost always a percentage bet over passing 1NTX with such a hand.

gwnn, on 2013-November-11, 08:23, said:

-please don't post your favourite runout scheme, we want to keep the one outlined above, I'm just curious on the details.

Since you asked so nicely, here's my version of Spelvic...no? Oh, all right then. You have been here long enough to know all the runout options by now anyway. As written above, the redouble trick I use for 4333 hands might be useful for you though and you can read that in more detail if you do a quick search.

[nigel_k]

I would never pass as opener using this method. Responder has to pass if weak with two four card suits. That covers a lot of hands and 1NT will play very badly on all of them. A suit contract will usually play better even if opener is 4333 and sometimes they cannot double. Also sometimes responder will have a good hand and be happy to pass the redouble (760 >> 180).

My experience with weak NT is that it's best to always run unless you expect to make or go close. The hands where 1NT costs less than two of a suit are a minority and you don't have enough information to tell if you've struck one of them.

[wodahs]

When in doubt, run, and be in doubt a lot. Oh and use a system that gives the opps many chances to rescue you, which is why I like to use a XX forces Pass system.

In my experience, opps are more likely to double if they have trump tricks, instead of just on power, so when scrambling it is preferable to have as many honour tricks as possible in the scramble suit. With something really horrible like xxx xxx KJT xxxx I think your best chance for them to rescue you might be to pretend you have a diamond suit.

[Zelandakh]

wodahs, on 2013-November-14, 20:45, said:

With something really horrible like xxx xxx KJT xxxx I think your best chance for them to rescue you might be to pretend you have a diamond suit.

If you can only show 2-suiters or play 1NTXX over a weak NT then clearly you want to show the minors. The alternative mentioned above brings partner into it - pretend you have a 5th club and show a 1-suiter (XX say) and then, when 2♣X gets back to you, redouble to show precisely 3334 shape. Then it is easy for Opener to choose a good spot.

[PrecisionL]

nigel_k, on 2013-November-11, 23:57, said:

I would never pass as opener using this method. Responder has to pass if weak with two four card suits. That covers a lot of hands and 1NT will play very badly on all of them. A suit contract will usually play better even if opener is 4333 and sometimes they cannot double. Also sometimes responder will have a good hand and be happy to pass the redouble (760 >> 180).

My experience with weak NT is that it's best to always run unless you expect to make or go close. The hands where 1NT costs less than two of a suit are a minority and you don't have enough information to tell if you've struck one of them.

I second this post, very good advice.

I gave up pass asks opener to XX long ago as responder needs to start escaping NOW and it is interesting how 4th hand often has a problem when responder bids (i.e. is X penalty or takeout?).

[mycroft]

The system I play gives them lots of chances to escape when we don't want to play, and puts them to the grinder otherwise. But the reason I don't like "pass forces XX" is that white, especially at MPs, the auction 1NT-X-p- is *terrifying* to fourth hand. Good players will pass-and-hope unless they have a clear call, and yes, everybody knows how many points the opponents have as soon as dummy comes down, but not only does declarer have declarer's advantage, and doubler is leading blind, but declarer is also the one who can first figure out what the contract would be if they were playing, so she is the first to know what contract *she* is actually playing. And I don't always play against good players.

And occasionally it makes :-).