[louisg]

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IMPs. Relevant agreements:

1NT=natural, 8-12, usually but not always a club stopper (2♦ instead would have been constructive but NF)

2♣=artificial and forward-going, usually a broken 6 card spade suit with game-invitational or better values, forcing to at least 2♠

2♦=5+ cards (typically exactly 5 since no 2D bid at first turn), ambiguous as to strength

3♦=natural, NF

[neilkaz]

I'd certainly try to find a ♣ stopper and then bid 3NT. I think west's 3rd call should be 3NT if he knows there's a C ♣ stop (but from your system he doesn't) and 3♣ asking for a stop.

Given your well described system (thanx as it makes replies contain MUCH less noise) west should like his 16 pts and fit and bid 3♣ rather than 3♦.

Blame to west with his 16 count opposite 8-12 and ♦ fit.

[rhm]

I think West should simply raise notrumps. The choice is between 2NT and 3NT. When red I would always raise to 3NT.
I am not really concerned about clubs when an opponent opens 1♣ and partner could have introduced a red suit instead of 1NT with nothing in clubs.
If partner decided against raising spades it looks unlikely that game in spades is preferable to 3NT.
The problem with gadgets like 2♣ is they are overused when available.

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

16 opposite 8-12 with an opening located doesn't need anything extra to get to game.

[Fluffy]

16 opposite 8-12 with an opening located doesn't need anything extra to get to game.

[dake50]

"1NT=natural, 8-12, usually but not always a club stopper"

*** 1Nt just denying spades? Or suggesting 3Nt may be on?
Esp after 2C Q-bid, why 2D, intending to quit 3D???
Surely going to 3Nt even without a H-stop is a good gamble.
Then won't West visualize his H-stop?
Looks like trying to avoid a game, not getting to a game as your agreements say.

[the_clown]

Agree that W has more than enough to GF, bidding 3♦ was just wrong.

[gszes]

neilkaz, on 2013-November-09, 13:09, said:

I'd certainly try to find a ♣ stopper and then bid 3NT. I think west's 3rd call should be 3NT if he knows there's a C ♣ stop (but from your system he doesn't) and 3♣ asking for a stop.

Given your well described system (thanx as it makes replies contain MUCH less noise) west should like his 16 pts and fit and bid 3♣ rather than 3♦.

Blame to west with his 16 count opposite 8-12 and ♦ fit.

good concept arbitrarily bidding NT, w/o first checking to make sure the suit is stopped, might cause us to miss
5d or (more rarely) 4s when p has no club stop and a max like Ax Kxx QJxxx xxx and thats not even max.

[aguahombre]

rhm, on 2013-November-09, 19:07, said:

The problem with gadgets like 2♣ is they are overused when available.

Valid observation in general. However, not in this case. The problem was not using another gadget (3♣) afterward if concerned about a club stopper upon locating a nice trick source.

[benlessard]

Its hard to give full values to the stiff Q here. Add to this that S are likely 6-1 and partner may have a stiff Honor in spades that hes going to think work but it wont work full time. Its a common theme a stiff K vs partner ace and game is good a stiff K vs Qxx,Jxxx and game is terrible.

With a stiff Q its even worse. I guess it depend on the 2D, If 2D us trying to find the best partscore than I think east should rebid 2NT to suggest club well stopped however if 2D is more forward going like a source of tricks than with AKx you have to force to game. If 2D is both than its a tough call. I think i would have bid 3C because AKx is just so great, but I dont think 3D is a mistake since its very easy to see hands where game will have no play. However its possible that 3D will go down because you are ruffing with top trumps.

[rhm]

aguahombre, on 2013-November-11, 00:11, said:

Valid observation in general. However, not in this case. The problem was not using another gadget (3♣) afterward if concerned about a club stopper upon locating a nice trick source.

The question to ask is should you be worried about a club stopper when an opponent opens 1♣, but clubs never get raised or rebid, and you hold the queen stiff and partner bids 1NT in response to your major suit overcall.
How likely is it that clubs are unstopped? How much do you gain by making certain there is a stopper?
My assessment is that all this bidding will help your opponents more finding the right lead and subsequent defense than your side can gain.
When raising a 1NT opening to 3NT, we have generally stopped worrying about unstopped suits, at least when alternative game contracts look remote.
Is this scenario here really different?

Rainer Herrmann

[benlessard]

rhm , it depend on the 2D bid why did advancer bid 2d ?

1- because he thinks D play better than NT (if so we dont have 2 stoppers and my Q of club is useless & I want to be in 3D not 3NT)
2- because he think showing 5D will help me reach a thin 3nt.
3- because he is "forced" to show 5D

[ewj]

clear 3nt for me.....cq a great card...partner rates to have good clubs so its probably useful...not gonna mess around trying to find a lame spade fit...

[jogs]

I like

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Must show support for diamonds, hearts, and is forward going.

[cherdano]

jogs, on 2013-November-11, 19:03, said:

I like

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Must show support for diamonds, hearts, and is forward going.

I have a different method for showing diamond support on this auction.
Your auction sounds like 5422 or similar to me.

[MrAce]

I totally agree with Rainer and the points he made.

[mcphee]

West found a 5/3 diamond fit, doubtful it is 6/3 fit, and has raised D when perhaps they might have just bid 3N. I don't see west wasn't delighted when partner bid diamonds and simply bid what they hope to make, which appears to look like 3NT. West was just too timid unless they felt the cue bid and raise was offering another game option.

[Lurpoa]

Absoutely, I agree with Rainer. Claro !
and with the points he made

rhm, on 2013-November-11, 04:48, said:

The question to ask is should you be worried about a club stopper when an opponent opens 1♣, but clubs never get raised or rebid, and you hold the queen stiff and partner bids 1NT in response to your major suit overcall.
How likely is it that clubs are unstopped? How much do you gain by making certain there is a stopper?
My assessment is that all this bidding will help your opponents more finding the right lead and subsequent defense than your side can gain.
When raising a 1NT opening to 3NT, we have generally stopped worrying about unstopped suits, at least when alternative game contracts look remote.
Is this scenario here really different?

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

Louis, what would a 3♣ rebid by West have meant instead of 2♣? Game forcing with a singleton club and not great spades perhaps? In any case, the ATB clearly goes to West as presented. But perhaps West thought 3♦ was forcing; or they thought that 2♦ denied a good club stopper. As has been pointed out, there is also something to be said for forgetting science and just blasting to 3NT directly.

[louisg]

Thanks for everyone's comments. In retrospect, I agree with those who say that 3♦ was an underbid. AKx is just too strong a holding, and given the likely source of tricks that it represents, some stronger action was called for. I must strongly disagree with those who suggest that the 2♣ bid was misguided though. 4♠ in a 6-2 fit is hardly "remote", and could be a much better contract than 3NT. Consider a hand for responder like Ax Kxx xxxx Kxxx. 3NT looks to me to be a big underdog (even if the opening lead is not optimal), while 4♠ requires nothing more than 3-2 trumps. And, of course, partner's clubs need not be even this good.

To answer Zel's question, a 3♣ rebid by overcaller is not specifically defined in our notes (GF hands would either jump in a red suit or go through 2♣ if not prepared to place the contract). Therefore, I would expect partner to take it as natural (good 5-5 in the blacks).