[Trinidad]

barmar, on 2013-October-27, 15:04, said:

In the 1NT Opening section, there's a field labeled "Systems on over", where you list which overcalls you still play systems on over. Most players have Double and 2♣ in there.

So, if you play

(1x)-1NT-(Dbl)-??

the same as

1NT-(Dbl)-??

then you play "system on" for the section on NT overcalls... even if you have marked "system off" after double of 1NT. After all, "system off" after doubles is part of your 1NT opening system. Since this system also applies for a 1NT overcall, you mark "system on" under NT overcalls.

Can you still follow that or did I overload your system?

Rik

[aguahombre]

Trinidad, on 2013-October-28, 07:41, said:

So, if you play

(1x)-1NT-(Dbl)-??

the same as

1NT-(Dbl)-??

then you play "system on" for the section on NT overcalls... even if you have marked "system off" after double of 1NT. After all, "system off" after doubles is part of your 1NT opening system. Since this system also applies for a 1NT overcall, you mark "system on" under NT overcalls.

Can you still follow that or did I overload your system?

Rik

You would be semantically correct and deliberately misleading if you did that, because the disclosure should be whether you use a system in the situation...not whether you are clever with the language.

[barmar]

Trinidad, on 2013-October-28, 07:41, said:

So, if you play

(1x)-1NT-(Dbl)-??

the same as

1NT-(Dbl)-??

then you play "system on" for the section on NT overcalls... even if you have marked "system off" after double of 1NT. After all, "system off" after doubles is part of your 1NT opening system. Since this system also applies for a 1NT overcall, you mark "system on" under NT overcalls.

Can you still follow that or did I overload your system?

Rik

Right. In the NT overcalls section, the checkbox simply means "We play this the same as if you'd opened 1NT".

Although a frequent point of confusion I've had with various partners is whether it still applies if third hand bids over the 1NT.

[mattias]

Trinidad, on 2013-October-27, 14:53, said:

"Why would he play:
(1x)-1NT-(Pass)-?? the same as 1NT-(Pass)-?? (systems on) and
(1x)-1NT-(Dbl)-?? different from 1NT-(Dbl)-?? (systems off)?"

We play (1x)-1NT-(Dbl) differently from 1NT-(Dbl). In the first auction responder knows that they have the balance of strength when she doubles. Therefore there is no need for us to have a way of playing in 1NT Rdbl, unlike in the second auction.

This post has been edited by mattias: 2013-October-29, 06:05

[blackshoe]

There is a series called "Conventional Wisdom" published cyclically in the ACBL Bulletin which explains how to fill out the ACBL system card. in the section on 1NT openings, the "systems on" line is described as the place to list over which interfering calls you play the same methods you do over no interference. They specifically mention X and 2♣ as such calls. In the section on NT Overcalls, the writeup makes it clear they are talking about overcalling a 1suit opening bid with 1NT. The "systems on" box there is intended to indicate that you play the same methods over (1suit)-1NT-( P)-? as you do over 1NT- ( P)-? No mention is made of auctions like (1suit)-1NT-(X)-? or 1suit)-1NT-(2♣)-? This is a flaw, of course, but it's a flaw in card design and the instructions in the article - it does not lead to the conclusion that one does or does not play "systems on" if responder bids after your partner's 1NT overcall. This area needs a "supplemental note" somewhere.

[Trinidad]

aguahombre, on 2013-October-28, 07:59, said:

You would be semantically correct and deliberately misleading if you did that, because the disclosure should be whether you use a system in the situation...not whether you are clever with the language.

What?! I consider myself fairly clever, but in this case I didn't intend to be particularly clever.

To get a little clearer and more specific:

Suppose I play:
- a nice NT system with Stayman, transfers and tralala after a 1NT opening
- this very same system when we make a 1NT overcall
- when the opponents double our 1NT opening, everything is a natural sign-off, with some meaning for pass and redouble.
- this very same system (natural sign off, etc.) after the opponents double our 1NT overcall.

Then I should mark the CC as follows
1NT opening: Stayman, transfers, tralala.
And fill out: "System off after Dbl"

Under NT overcalls, I tick the box "System on".

Why would one think that this is a semantic trick, deliberately misleading? It describes exactly what I am playing: the 1NT overcall system is exactly like the 1NT opening system, hence "system on" under NT overcalls. I see ticking this "system on" box under NT overcalls as "see under NT opening".

Independent of that, I suppose that most pairs play somewhat like that. For systemic purposes, they simply ignore the opening, therefore, they simply tick the box.

Rik

[blackshoe]

"Conventional Wisdom" (the series in the Bulletin) says "When you overcall 1NT and LHO passes, do you still play Stayman and transfers? If so, check this box to indicate that the methods you play after a 1NT opening apply after an overcall as well." It does not address what you do if LHO does not pass. As I said, it's flawed.

[aguahombre]

Trinidad, on 2013-October-28, 09:16, said:

Underder NT overcalls, I tick the box "System on".

Why would one think that this is a semantic trick, deliberately misleading? It describes exactly what I am playing: the 1NT overcall system is exactly like the 1NT opening system, hence "system on" under NT overcalls. I see ticking this "system on" box under NT overcalls as "see under NT opening".

I thought your post (thus,my reply) referred to the case where (say) you don't play systems after a NT opening is Doubled, and have the same agreements after a NT overcall is Doubled. Checking "Systems On" implies there are some conventions to consider "on", and would be misleading.

[Trinidad]

blackshoe, on 2013-October-28, 09:32, said:

"Conventional Wisdom" (the series in the Bulletin) says "When you overcall 1NT and LHO passes, do you still play Stayman and transfers? If so, check this box to indicate that the methods you play after a 1NT opening apply after an overcall as well." It does not address what you do if LHO does not pass. As I said, it's flawed.

It says (your own quote):
"If so, check this box to indicate that the methods you play after a 1NT opening apply after an overcall as well."

It gives an example on what to do when you play Stayman and transfers in both situations: tick the box.

It doesnot give an example of what to do when you play double barreled Stayman. Is it flawed? No, obviously not, since that is what "example" means.

I think that: "check this box to indicate that the methods you play after a 1NT opening apply after an overcall as well." is pretty clear: it applies after opponent's pass, as well as after opponent's double or bid, because the "methods that you play after a 1NT opening" include the methods after the opponent passes, doubles and bids.

Specifically, as an example, Mattias (see here) should not check "systems on" under NT overcalls.

Rik

[ggwhiz]

I think I agree with Rik.... on condition that we waterboard the party responsible for it. Must be the same moron that put a black checkmark for a double that shows "cards". What kind of response is that to a question from a rookie?

[WellSpyder]

ggwhiz, on 2013-October-28, 10:23, said:

I think I agree with Rik.... on condition that we waterboard the party responsible for it.

I agree with Rik, too, and I see no need for waterboarding. Perhaps I am biased since I don't have to use the ACBL CC system of checkboxes, but to me there are two completely separate Qs I want to check when playing with a new partner:

1) Do we play systems on if opponents overcall our 1NT? That is, do we play the same meaning for bids as we do when opponents pass? The typical answer in England would be NO.

2) Do we play systems on if we make a 1NT overcall? That is, do we play the same meaning for bids in response to our 1NT overcall as we do in response to our 1NT opening? The typical answer in England would, I think, be YES (except perhaps for pairs who have devoted more attention to this than most are willing to).

If the answer to 2) is indeed YES, then I think by construction this applies just as much to what bids mean over an intervening bid after the 1NT bid as it does to bids in an auction where opponents pass over 1NT. And I would have no hesitation assuming this with a new partner with whom I have discussed 1) and 2), even if we had not explicitly discussed intervention over 2).

[blackshoe]

What do you play over 1NT-(2♠)? Do you play the same methods over (1♠)-1NT-(2♠)? Do you think everyone does? Does "systems on" in the overcall section of the system card apply to the second auction? (The "systems on" part of the 1NT opening section of the card clearly does not apply to the first auction. Nor is there any indication in "Conventional Wisdom" that indicates the answer to my last question is "yes".)

[WellSpyder]

Not 100% sure whether or not these questions are directed at me, but in case it helps, here are my answers:

blackshoe, on 2013-October-28, 11:29, said:

What do you play over 1NT-(2♠)?

It depends who I am playing with (eg double may be take-out, penalties or values; other bids may be natural, Lebensohl or Rubensohl).

Quote

Do you play the same methods over (1♠)-1NT-(2♠)?

Yes.

Quote

Do you think everyone does?

Almost certainly not, though I would expect a big majority of those I play against to do so, or to assume so if they had not explicitly discussed it.

Quote

Does "systems on" in the overcall section of the system card apply to the second auction? (The "systems on" part of the 1NT opening section of the card clearly does not apply to the first auction. Nor is there any indication in "Conventional Wisdom" that indicates the answer to my last question is "yes".)

I don't claim to be an expert on the ACBL card - I have never had to fill it in. But in the absence of any guidance to the contrary I would start with the expectation that it applied to the whole system after a 1NT overcall, not just the bit that matched an unopposed auction.

[blackshoe]

Not really directed at you specifically, though your post was the impetus for mine. As regards the last point above, about "systems on" in the NT overcall section of the card, the problem is that it is not at all clear, even given the "guidance" in "Conventional Wisdom", what the ACBL really means here.

[campboy]

It seems simple enough to me. There is a checkbox (so I gather) for systems on when 1NT is an overcall, and a checkbox for systems on after opponents double. If you want to know whether systems are on when 1NT is an overcall and opponents double, it is only to be expected that you need to look at both checkboxen.

[Trinidad]

blackshoe, on 2013-October-28, 12:21, said:

the problem is that it is not at all clear, even given the "guidance" in "Conventional Wisdom", what the ACBL really means here.

I don't agree with that at all. The sentence

Quote

If so, check this box to indicate that the methods you play after a 1NT opening apply after an overcall as well.

is crystal clear: If you play the same methods after your 1NT overcall as after your 1NT opening then you check the box. If your methods for these situations are different then you don't check this box. And quite obviously, "your methods" is not limited to the situation where RHO passes. (Or doesn't your system after 1NT-(Dbl) or 1NT-(2♥) belong to your methods over a 1NT opening?)

In addition, my answers to your questions are exactly the same as WellSpyder's.

Rik

[barmar]

WellSpyder, on 2013-October-28, 12:04, said:

I don't claim to be an expert on the ACBL card - I have never had to fill it in. But in the absence of any guidance to the contrary I would start with the expectation that it applied to the whole system after a 1NT overcall, not just the bit that matched an unopposed auction.

I've thought the same thing, but I can't tell you the number of accidents I've had because partner didn't have the same assumption.

The problem is that it's not a frequent enough occurrence that players think to discuss it when making out the CC with a new partner. They just agree to check the box and go on to the next section of the CC.

[blackshoe]

I have found that even my regular partners, most of them, don't like to discuss the nuances of the bidding system. If they know it, that's how they play it. If they don't know it, well, hopefully it won't come up. But discuss it? Nah. Takes too much time away from playing - or socializing.

[Zelandakh]

While this discussion is all very amusing does anyone seriously believe that if South had heard the explanation "15-18 balanced", or even "it's on the card" for that matter, that they would have passed 3♦? If so I have a small bridge available...

Did anyone actually bother asking South why he thought transfers were off given his explanation? N-S should probably be glad the appeal did not go ahead - it is surely closer to an AWM than a reversal.