[bd71]

---

Matchpoints. NAP-A district qualifying.

-110 for N/S was a matchpoint zero with a spade fit and the balance of the points.

What should N/S have done to get in the auction?

[the_clown]

As South I would have made a takeout double of 1♥, but i may be in the minority here.

[Bbradley62]

As South, I'd have either doubled 1♥ or bid 2♦, depending on partnership style and agreements.

[GreenMan]

I double as South any day of the week. Twice on Sundays.

[ahydra]

South can double 1H, or if not, he can certainly double 2H.

ahydra

[ggwhiz]

ahydra, on 2013-October-20, 11:17, said:

South can double 1H, or if not, he can certainly double 2H.

Yes. At mp's you gotta come in and I would do it first shot. I would always balance with the north hand too, 3♣ on a sane day or 2♠ when I'm in a gambling mood.

[BillPatch]

ahydra, on 2013-October-20, 11:17, said:

South can double 1H, or if not, he can certainly double 2H.

Traditionally, South's double in the second round would be for penalties
as it is a direct double not at his first chance to double the suit, so
I disagree about the second round double. On this auction, though trapping
may be out of style, takeout on the second round is more dangerous than
first, so I would keep the old agreement.

[BillPatch]

ggwhiz, on 2013-October-20, 12:26, said:

. . . . I would always balance with the north hand too, 3♣ on a sane day or 2♠ when I'm in a gambling mood.

David Lawrence, in his work on overcalls, stressed safe suits and dangerous suits to enter the auction, and he repeated
it in the classic work The Complete Book on Balancing. In this auction responder has denied a ♠ suit and did
not raise. Therefore it is probable he has at least eight cards in the minors. Therefore to N ♠ is safe and ♣ is
dangerous. A balance in a safe suit with 4 cards is much safer than the next higher level with 5. So you should bid 2♠
on a sane day.

[the hog]

South should bid 1NT showing 4S and a longer minor.

[MrAce]

No wonder L.Cohen says he prefers going -1100 instead of -110
I think S did just fine, it is N that needs to balance when 2♥ pass pass comes to him, especially if you are playing a style which bids 2♠ in balancing over 2♥ with 4 cards usually, double showing 3 card spades. this may not get you to 4♠ which is making, but much better than sitting on 2♥, and it is MP.

But people will blame S because his bean count is more than N.

[ahydra]

BillPatch, on 2013-October-20, 19:28, said:

Traditionally, South's double in the second round would be for penalties
as it is a direct double not at his first chance to double the suit, so
I disagree about the second round double. On this auction, though trapping
may be out of style, takeout on the second round is more dangerous than
first, so I would keep the old agreement.

This idea is very oldfashioned - I don't think even the LOLs at my club play that. I much prefer the ability to prebalance - say you have a reasonable ten-count with short hearts, that's not enough to make a first-round TOX, but a clear "reopening" over a bid that's going to otherwise end the auction.

ahydra

[PhilKing]

BillPatch, on 2013-October-20, 19:55, said:

David Lawrence, in his work on overcalls, stressed safe suits and dangerous suits to enter the auction, and he repeated

But Leonard Cohen argues that this leads to errors in assessing total tricks.

[Zelandakh]

MrAce, on 2013-October-20, 23:05, said:

But people will blame S because his bean count is more than N.

I think this is grossly unfair Timo. South also has fewer hearts than North and this is also relevant. From North's perspective, either the opponents are in a misfit or partner did not act with short hearts. Either way, acting could easily be turning a small plus into a minus.

ahydra, on 2013-October-21, 05:10, said:

This idea is very oldfashioned - I don't think even the LOLs at my club play that.

So old-fashioned in fact that it is part of Robson-Segal (p 223, example c1). Clearly though, the agreement about a delayed double has a major impact on this auction.

A side question: is there any hand with 5 (or more) spades that would want to bid them over 2♥ but not over 1♥? If no, then Q2: are there any hands without precisely 4 spades and a second place to play that would overcall 2♠? If again no, then Q3: is there any non-Raptor hand that would make such a 2♠ overcall?

Against this, it is clearly more dangerous for South to come into a live auction (perhaps 15 vs 12) than for North to balance. Nonetheless, of you do not bid 2♠ with this South hand then I am interested which hands you do find suitable.

Finally, the idea of overcalling 2♦ with the South hand makes me feel ill.

[Codo]

I would double 1 ♥ with or without elc.
Failing to do so, I would 100 % bid 2 Spade over 2 ♥ with the SOUTH hand. Luckily I discussed this with my partners for similar situations: This shows a hand with 4 spades, not suitable for a first round intervention, usually a hand we had liked to bid raptor with...

[MrAce]

Zelandakh, on 2013-October-21, 08:43, said:

I think this is grossly unfair Timo. South also has fewer hearts than North and this is also relevant. From North's perspective, either the opponents are in a misfit or partner did not act with short hearts. Either way, acting could easily be turning a small plus into a minus.

Sorry but i disagree.

-You are in balancing seat and opps are about to play 2♥ if u decide to pass.
-If you bid 2♠ there can be a lot of things on your favor, such as making 2♠, finding another spot, dragging them to 3 level, going minus less than -110 or -140. But you are concerned that 2♥ may go down when you also go down among all of this ? And only at 2 level ?
-White vs red ??????
-And i am grossly unfair ? LOL

Jesus! This and a lot of topics in BBF, convinced me that there are people with "Bidding erection dysfunction and severe bidding fobia" I am thinking about coming up with a new profession to help these type of pairs by counceling them


I said people will blame S because he has more bean counts, because people are trying to find a way to bid this game. I don't. To me, at MP especially, the priority is not to get in, overcall, balance etc etc with solid values. There are other things in priority. 1 NT bidder denies 4 card spade or we would be notified by OP that 1NT can have 4 card spades. 2♥ bidder can still have 6-4 majors, but there are also way more hand types without 4 card spade that he would bid 2♥. It is not guaranteed % 100 but pd is very very likely to hold 3+ spades most of the time and this is more than enough to refuse letting them play 2♥ at MP.

[Zelandakh]

MrAce, on 2013-October-21, 12:46, said:

-And i am grossly unfair ? LOL

Yes, you are unfair for characterising those that think South should bid as being bean-counters when there are other aspects of the hand that suggest South should take action, most notably the doubleton heart. And you did not answer about what South hands would bid 2♠ here but not overcall or double on the first round. The choice is not between North acting or letting them play 2♥; there is a third option for South to act. If South does act on hands such as this then it affects North's decision too. For myself, the onus is primarily on the hand with shortness to act. I understand that your position is different but that does not make those taking action with the South hand bean counters.

[MrAce]

Zelandakh, on 2013-October-21, 13:15, said:

Yes, you are unfair for characterising those that think South should bid as being bean-counters when there are other aspects of the hand that suggest South should take action, most notably the doubleton heart. And you did not answer about what South hands would bid 2♠ here but not overcall or double on the first round. The choice is not between North acting or letting them play 2♥; there is a third option for South to act. If South does act on hands such as this then it affects North's decision too. For myself, the onus is primarily on the hand with shortness to act. I understand that your position is different but that does not make those taking action with the South hand bean counters.

I thought you answered your own question previously, there is huge difference between getting in live auction and balancing I am aware S can pre balance if he wants to, since he did not overcall on 1 ♥. But i will not debate this with people who does not even want to balance in balancing seat let alone pre balancing. (i am not talking about you or anyone in particular in this topic, mostly my memory from all other simuilar topics in general) This is way too theoretical for I/A forum. It is much easier (at least i thought it was) to try to convince them that it is OK to do something they normally would not do, in balancing seat.

Especially holding spades and they are about to play 2♥

"Shortness acts" rule does not really apply in balancing seat, at 2 level, when holding spades vs sitting on their 2♥ Or score sheets would be full of funny results just like this one at MP.

[RSClyde]

I definitely play double of 2♥ on that auction as penalty. It just can't be safer to enter the auction now than at the one level. The problem on an auction like this is that you don't know if anyone has a fit. That's why if you get in early, partner can simply decide if he wants to take a call. But by waiting, you force partner in at a higher level. If you're talking about an auction with a clear fit then that's fine (like when hearts are raised), but here partner could have all 5 outstanding hearts.

[wyman]

I would always balance (2S) as north. As south, if a dbl of 2H is takeout, I would make one, but I would not dbl 1H. It's not my own style, but I don't hate the style where S has a t/o of 1H.

You're not going to get rich at MPs defending undoubled 2-level contracts. This is hard because balancing seat has 3 cards in opps' suit, and there's no guarantee that they have a fit. But still, north has 9 cards in two suits...

[amre_man]

South's TO of 1♥ seems automatic given point count. I would do it every hand in 2nd seat. North has sufficient points to respond even over West's 1NT.

If South does not TO, I would X as North as well. Eventually N/S find a low ♠ contract.