[manudude03]

---

E/W were a first time partnership with fairly basic agreements, but the hand caused a lot of discussion (before anyone asks, we had not discussed exclusion. ATB for missing this slam (we lost 14 imps on this when the other table were pushed into 6H X making).

[Cyberyeti]

If W bid 4♥ over 4♦ it would be difficult for E to stay out of slam.

Btw does south actually have a pulse not to bid over 4♦, a 4N bid would be a major spanner in the works.

[mikeh]

Lots to talk about, for sure.

I admit that as South I couldn't bring myself not to overcall 2N at favourable, with 65 shape.

Now West presumably has a choice between a competitive 3♥, which seems slightly conservative, and whatever shows a limit raise (for me, 3♣ using an approach popularized by the Bridge World, but who knows what an unpracticed partnership would think....which makes S's pass even more bizarre).

Let's assume the slightly aggressive limit.

look at the North hand!!!!!!!!

I'd be wanting to do something here....the honest blast to 6♦, a psychic call of some kind, or a relatively gentle nudge such as 5♦.

I suppose it is remotely possible to find spades after S bids 2N, but I doubt that any partnership I have ever been part of would be able to do so. West's hand simply isn't good enough to first show spades and then bid hearts: I would think that virtually all good players would 'support with support' with what is, after all, only a good but Aceless 9 count with no stiffs or voids.

And I know of no means whereby (nor, frankly reasons for) East now showing spades over whatever N bids.

However, S was asleep or comatose at his first call, so opportunity existed to find spades, and, lo, they did.

S must still have been unconscious to pass 4♦...I mean, his inactions to this point are nothing short of insane.

But, maybe he knew his customers.

West has a huge fit!! Opposite say Axxx Axxxxx x Ax slam is virtually cold and partner surely has more in hcp than this, given that he has forced to game opposite a hand that could easily be Jxxx xx KQxx xxx!

He definitely owes E a 4♥ cue, and now E would love to have exclusion but would, I assume, bid 5♣. I assume that this would block S, or at most get S to make a daring lead-directing double.

In any event, West would have nothing further to say, which actually tells East quite a bit.

The 4♥ call should never be shortness, and it shows more than a minimum hand. When West then fails to cue diamonds, on an auction where he HAS to show that Ace if he holds it, E can infer that W lacks that card. Now, if S doubled 5♣ and West passes that, he can infer that West lacks the club K.

It wouldn't then be insane for East to gamble 7♠ but realistically they might well stop in the small slam.

I'd hate to be S if my opps took advantage of my comatose condition and reached the grand

[RSClyde]

The better question would be which of west's bids was the worst.

[Fluffy]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-October-09, 17:51, said:

If W bid 4♥ over 4♦ it would be difficult for E to stay out of slam.

1♠ makes it hard for slam, 4♥ makes it hard/impossible for grand.

1♥ I don´t like but with so much slam potential it is often better if your methods allow it.

This is the third time I say something like this in just one week. East only needs to picture partner with ♠Kxxx for grand slam to have good play, passing 4♠ is horrible.

Wests 4♠ bid with 3 keycards and the ´9th´ trump is a very hopeless bid.

[mcphee]

It is beyond my scope to imagine not showing that K of H, which along with the J is like KQ. How the west player can fail to see they have a super hand is terrible. N/S were the pair placed in this position to offer the opps a free run with all sorts of shape were the biggest pussies ever! At most table I am sure the bidding would be at 6D before E gets a second bid.

[gnasher]

mikeh, on 2013-October-09, 18:14, said:

I admit that as South I couldn't bring myself not to overcall 2N at favourable, with 65 shape.

Now West presumably has a choice between a competitive 3♥, which seems slightly conservative, and whatever shows a limit raise (for me, 3♣ using an approach popularized by the Bridge World, but who knows what an unpracticed partnership would think....which makes S's pass even more bizarre).

Let's assume the slightly aggressive limit.

look at the North hand!!!!!!!!

I'd be wanting to do something here....the honest blast to 6♦, a psychic call of some kind, or a relatively gentle nudge such as 5♦.

I suppose it is remotely possible to find spades after S bids 2N, but I doubt that any partnership I have ever been part of would be able to do so. West's hand simply isn't good enough to first show spades and then bid hearts: I would think that virtually all good players would 'support with support' with what is, after all, only a good but Aceless 9 count with no stiffs or voids.

And I know of no means whereby (nor, frankly reasons for) East now showing spades over whatever N bids.

If either hand gets to the point of bidding a grand slam, they ought to offer spades as an alternative. No one has to picture five spades opposite: it would still be right if East had KQxx KJxx xx xxx or West had AJxx AQxxxx - Axx.

The tricky part is deciding to bid seven. After

---

East might make a forcing pass, planning to pull a double to show grand-slam interest. If it then went double-6♥, West might revaluate and bid 6♠ or 7♦.

This hand is a good argument for being able to make a fit-bid in the unbid suit. Maybe 3NT over 2NT should show a fit bid in spades? It's not really needed in a natural sense, because all good balanced hands start with double.

[ahydra]

Support with support. 1S is not a good idea, 4S is a bid of a wimp.

If my regular partner wasn't obsessed with SJS for some reason, as West I could bid 2S over 1H (fit jump INV+), then East knows he's playing at least 6S. Even after 1H-(p)-3H-(X) East can try for slam with 3S cue or maybe 4D followed by 5D.

What is the standard Unusual vs Unusual set of responses? Could you play something like lower suit = INV+ fit, higher suit = INV+ with FJ-type in unbid suit (as West here), 3H merely competitive, 3S strong with spades but no heart fit, X = values?

Also while I think about it - does anyone have meta-agreements to be able to set the fit jump suit as trumps? I think with all my partners after 1H-2S (FJ), we would think hearts are trumps. I suppose you can just bid the suit again (3S), inviting cues, but that runs into trouble in the 1S-3H case.

ahydra

[helene_t]

West can just ask for keycards. Hearing 3 he knows that his club loser goes on the hearts. Worst-case scenario is that E doesn't have ♥Q and only five hearts but in that case he must at the very least have ♣K or a void in diamonds for the values he showed with his splinter. So 6 is safe.

East can't do more, since West could have Jxxx-xx-KJxx-Jxx. I don't think I would even have made the 5♠ bid.

[ArtK78]

On the actual auction, West was criminally wimpy. West has a super hand opposite a partner who forced to game over a 1/1 response and showed both majors and diamond shortness. So I give West 100% of the blame.

Going back to the hypothetical auctions posed above, how do EW find spades after South bids 2NT over 1♥ and North bids to the stratosphere? The simple answer is that they can't. The simple solution is to open the East hand 1♠. Having seen a lot of these hands lately, I am becoming more convinced that, even with good hands like East's where he intends to bid hearts then spades then spades, it is better to open 1♠ and treat the hand as a 5-5 rather than a 5-6. Reverse auctions are very awkward, and they should probably be reserved for "traditional" reverses - 18-20 HCP and 4-5 or 4-6 distribution. Expanding the reverse auctions to cover hands like East's hand here makes subsequent auctions very difficult.

After opening the East hand 1♠, it is a lot easier to find hearts later than it is to find spades after opening 1♥. And it is not too difficult to show the nature of the East hand after opening 1♠.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2013-October-10, 04:37, said:

1♠ makes it hard for slam, 4♥ makes it hard/impossible for grand.

Hardly if you don't play all this newfangled stuff, after 4♥ the auction proceeds effectively 5N(GSF)-7♠

[ggwhiz]

I blame everyone except North and your teammates too for 20% each.

Too many variables on how but at these colors I'm bidding 7♦ either pushing them to the grand or -300.

I can't imagine an auction to set it down in 6♥ doubled.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

As stated, it is difficult to show ♥ & ♠ double-fits . Usually, when a Major is first agreed, it becomes the trump suit. A subsequent other-major-bid becomes a cue-bid .

Ahydra [ post # 8 ] mentions "fit-jump-bid" responses to solve this problem.... and a 1H open is the only suit that Responder can show a fit-bid [ at a low level ] provided NO interference .

Since I play Bergen Raises along with Jac2NT, I suppose 1H - 2S! could be a fit-bid "5+ cds somewhere", w/4+ cds♥.
Just experimenting here:

East - West
1H - 2S! (fit-bid somewhere, limit+ , 4+ cards ♥; 5+ cds ♣/♦/♠ )
2NT! ( asks for suit which is a fit-jump for Hts )
....... - 3C ( ♣ )
....... - 3D ( ♦ )
....... - 3H ( ♠ )
After: - 3H
3S ( = 3+ cards ♠-- double-fit ; any other bid would deny 3 cards ♠ )
....... - 3NT ( no minor Ctrl to cue ) can't be to play with each side having 8+ card fits in BOTH Majors
5D! ( 6 Ace Exclusion )
....... - 6C, 4th step ( 2 + ♠Q ) [ ♥ Q is rolled into the in the K-ask ]
7S ( East now can count 5s, 6h, ♣Ace, ♣-ruff in West hand [ can discard East's ♣ on long ♥ ]

EDIT: Zelandakh uses 1H - 2S! as a mini-splinter or in-between splinter .
I would think splinters would occur much more frequently than fit-jumps .

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2013-October-13, 09:15

[ArtK78]

In my experience, "fit showing bids" work well in these Fora but rarely occur in real life.

[Cyberyeti]

ArtK78, on 2013-October-10, 12:53, said:

In my experience, "fit showing bids" work well in these Fora but rarely occur in real life.

We find they work very well in real life too, but for us that hand isn't good enough, we play them opening hand +

[Zelandakh]

I have played jump shifts as mini fit jumps before too and they were ok. I obviously prefer the multi-way splinter though. I do play FJs in competition though and this is where they really shine.

On the given hand, my method has little to offer other than a 3♣ raise showing a 4+ card limit raise. If East were to continue 3♦ over this then West could now show the spade suit but otherwise the spade fit gets buried. The OP auction (up to 4♦) is better on this hand and should really have been enough.

As a theoretical aside, it was mentioned that 4♥ is a cue after 4♦. Is that how everyone plays it here? I have traditionally used the in-between step when a splinter is 2 steps below game as a Last Train type of call. This is an area I am quite keen on improving and have been looking into the idea of switching to cue bids but (on this auction) with 4NT and 5♣ inverted - that is 4NT becomes a club cue and 5♣ RKCB. It works a little better when the suit is hearts, which effectively just defaults back to Standard instead of Kickback.

[MrAce]

Zelandakh, on 2013-October-11, 04:13, said:

As a theoretical aside, it was mentioned that 4♥ is a cue after 4♦. Is that how everyone plays it here?

I can not speak for everyone but i play it as cue. And just like most people i cue in pd's real suit only with honors, not singleton. This helps a lot to pd in many situations, with the price of not being able to cue with shortness, which could be useful in hands where pd opened his 5 card major with something like J9xxx or similar. But this is a small target to aim imho.

[P_Marlowe]

Did West ever tell East, that the partnership has a 9+ card fit in hearts?
That the partnership has a doublefit? No.

After this, do you still ask, who is responsible for the result?

Would I have reached slam, assuming West informed East about the double fit?
No idea, but I would have a better chance. Hence the ATB stops after andwering
the intro question.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[manudude03]

I had a feeling the results would be like this. I was East here, partner argued that he didn't want to be overly encouraging with no aces and so chose to sign off. He also said something like the splinter is probably the wrong choice, but he couldn't offer any alternative.