[blackshoe]

"You can't fool me! It's elephants all the way down!"

[Trinidad]

 Fluffy, on 2013-October-27, 13:09, said:

Actually I've done, mikeh has used that argument, and as I said, from god's perspective, lack of a maker might not be any kind of problem. We are locked in a 3d world but god could have a 4d or 7d intelligence we cannot ever begin to understand.

There is also a cyclic theory were god was created by a superior god, and that superior god by another even greater etc, and the greatest of all is us. I don't think it makes much sense but I don't reject it totally.

Doesn't this cyclic theory then simply take you back to where we are now: Not knowing where we came from, but with a lot of surplus gods that explain... nothing. What would be the added value of coming up with these gods?

Rik

[Fluffy]

it adds a purpose to the universe

[Trinidad]

In what way?

The gods created us - why?
We created the gods - why?

I see no purpose, just a useless circle. What do you see?

Rik

[WellSpyder]

 Trinidad, on 2013-October-27, 09:54, said:

"Two religions on one pillow has the devil sleeping in between."

"The Netherlands has as many religious factions as it has inhabitants"

Hmmm, I hope (at least) one of these pieces of wisdom isn't actually true, otherwise I don't see much of a future for the country....

[PassedOut]

 WellSpyder, on 2013-October-28, 05:28, said:

Hmmm, I hope (at least) one of these pieces of wisdom isn't actually true, otherwise I don't see much of a future for the country....

Maybe threesomes with the devil are popular...

[Trinidad]

Who needs a pillow...

Rik

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2013-October-23, 14:55, said:

This thread is really on a trip.


I seem to still wish for the possibility of magic. And why not?

There is IMO a significant difference between wishing for (a knowing muse) and having "faith" - the latter is worthless unless one acts on that "faith".

The idea of "magic" or god, if you prefer, has been tested to a degree. During the 1300s, faith in god was the sole barrier between the Black Death and the population - during those 100 years it is estimated that 75 million people died.

In 1959, modern medicine was firmly entrenched as the answer to illness and worldwide deaths from bubonic plague dropped to 200 per year.

Now, we may like to "muse" that magic can cure illness, but if we want to escape the Black Death then antibiotics and rodent control shows better outcomes.

[PassedOut]

 Winstonm, on 2013-October-28, 08:37, said:

The idea of "magic" or god, if you prefer, has been tested to a degree. During the 1300s, faith in god was the sole barrier between the Black Death and the population - during those 100 years it is estimated that 75 million people died.

In 1959, modern medicine was firmly entrenched as the answer to illness and worldwide deaths from bubonic plague dropped to 200 per year.

That's why god created science!

[Trinidad]

 PassedOut, on 2013-October-28, 09:25, said:

That's why god created science!

But why did He do it on the 2017149th day...

Didn't He have his priorities straight?

Rik

[helene_t]

 Trinidad, on 2013-October-28, 09:52, said:

But why did He do it on the 2017149th day...

+/- 4,000,000,000,000th days I thought? Or has the big bang theory recently been revised?

[billw55]

 helene_t, on 2013-October-28, 10:11, said:

+/- 4,000,000,000,000th days I thought? Or has the big bang theory recently been revised?

I think Rik is referencing young earth ideology. 6000 yr ~ 2x10⁶ days.

[Vampyr]

 Trinidad, on 2013-October-28, 04:34, said:

In what way?

The gods created us - why?
We created the gods - why?

I see no purpose, just a useless circle. What do you see?

I don't see it either. We are here, and many individuals have a purpose, which might be to find a cure for cancer or be a tyrannical dictator. But as for "us, being here" for a purpose... I'm not even sure what it would mean for the whole of humanity to have a collective purpose. If there is something specific we are supposed to accomplish, I never received the memo (and I did go to Catholic school for nine years, and have read all of the Bible. So the answer is not in those places).

[PassedOut]

 Trinidad, on 2013-October-28, 09:52, said:

But why did He do it on the 2017149th day...

Didn't He have his priorities straight?

Rik

If he had given it more thought, god would have invented science much earlier. Better late than never.

[Trinidad]

 Trinidad, on 2013-October-28, 09:52, said:

But why did He do it on the 2017149th day...

Didn't He have his priorities straight?

Rik

Oops... I just noted this is a Sunday. No wonder christian fundamentalists have a problem with science.



Rik

[mike777]

For some reason people choose to forget that great advances in science were made by Christians who accepted Jesus. Just as those who rejected god created great evil. To name only a few, Hitler, Mao, Stalin and many others.

If your point is many others sinned in God's name, I agree. And yes the pews are full of sinners including me. Thus some of us pray for Grace.

As I yet point out you can fully believe in an afterlife and yet reject all gods.

[Vampyr]

 mike777, on 2013-October-30, 22:20, said:

For some reason people choose to forget that great advances in science were made by Christians who accepted Jesus. Just as those who rejected god created great evil. To name only a few, Hitler, Mao, Stalin and many others.

And vice versa. What is your point?

Quote

As I yet point out you can fully believe in an afterlife and yet reject all gods.

Yes, you have mentioned this many times. Do you have a source?

[Trinidad]

 mike777, on 2013-October-30, 22:20, said:

For some reason people choose to forget that great advances in science were made by Christians who accepted Jesus.

Of course, there have been Christian scientists. But I think it is generally recognized that major scientific advances were made during the Enlightenment when it started to be possible to doubt the classic Christian dogma's. I think it is also recognized that Christianity has been a barrier for scientific advancement.

Most of the western scientists (Galilei, Newton, etc.) were Christians, for the simple fact that everybody was a Christian. There was not much choice.

I don't know many great scientists who converted from non-believers to Christians by actively "accepting Jesus". I do know good scientists who are Christians, but all their ancestors are Christians too.

 mike777, on 2013-October-30, 22:20, said:

Just as those who rejected god created great evil. To name only a few, Hitler, Mao, Stalin and many others.

There are bad people everywhere: among believers and among non believers, as well as among white, black, yellow, red, short, tall, slim and fat people, among communists and capitalists, men, women, young and old.

But did any of these bad guys ("Hitler, Mao, Stalin and many others") commit their athrocities in the name of non-believing? I don't think so. That was a little bit different for -just to name one- the Spanish inquisition.

 mike777, on 2013-October-30, 22:20, said:

If your point is many others sinned in God's name, I agree. And yes the pews are full of sinners including me. Thus some of us pray for Grace.

I also make mistakes. I will try to learn from them to prevent making them again. Asking an Almighty_Being_Who_Probably_Doesn't_Exist for Grace seems like a waste of time that I could use to analyze why I went wrong to begin with and how to prevent this in the future.

 mike777, on 2013-October-30, 22:20, said:

As I yet point out you can fully believe in an afterlife and yet reject all gods.

Of course. I don't see a need for a causal relationship between believing in afterlife and believing in god(s). I may have missed something, but I don't think anyone claimed there was a need for such a relationship. There seems to be a fair degree of correlation, though, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Rik

[Winstonm]

 Trinidad, on 2013-October-31, 06:38, said:

I also make mistakes. I will try to learn from them to prevent making them again. Asking an Almighty_Being_Who_Probably_Doesn't_Exist for Grace seems like a waste of time that I could use to analyze why I went wrong to begin with and how to prevent this in the future.

Rik

Of all the post on this thread, this one gets to the very heart of the Sam Harris argument - that reliance upon a god to directly solve man's difficulties is too often used as a simplistic proxy for the complex reality-based task of finding human answers to human problems, and such reliance on these proxies inhibits genuine human growth.

[Vampyr]

 Trinidad, on 2013-October-31, 06:38, said:

Of course. I don't see a need for a causal relationship between believing in afterlife and believing in god(s). I may have missed something, but I don't think anyone claimed there was a need for such a relationship. There seems to be a fair degree of correlation, though, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Except in some very unusual cases, none of which spring to mind, of course the relationship is causal. And in any case, it would require some supernatural agent to enable our consciousness to continue to exist while our brains are worm food or ashes.