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The Problem with Religious Moderation From Sam Harris
#541
Posted 2013-October-27, 17:37
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#542
Posted 2013-October-28, 03:05
Fluffy, on 2013-October-27, 13:09, said:
There is also a cyclic theory were god was created by a superior god, and that superior god by another even greater etc, and the greatest of all is us. I don't think it makes much sense but I don't reject it totally.
Doesn't this cyclic theory then simply take you back to where we are now: Not knowing where we came from, but with a lot of surplus gods that explain... nothing. What would be the added value of coming up with these gods?
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#544
Posted 2013-October-28, 04:34
The gods created us - why?
We created the gods - why?
I see no purpose, just a useless circle. What do you see?
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#545
Posted 2013-October-28, 05:28
Trinidad, on 2013-October-27, 09:54, said:
"The Netherlands has as many religious factions as it has inhabitants"
Hmmm, I hope (at least) one of these pieces of wisdom isn't actually true, otherwise I don't see much of a future for the country....
#546
Posted 2013-October-28, 05:52
WellSpyder, on 2013-October-28, 05:28, said:
Maybe threesomes with the devil are popular...
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The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
#547
Posted 2013-October-28, 07:28
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#548
Posted 2013-October-28, 08:37
kenberg, on 2013-October-23, 14:55, said:
I seem to still wish for the possibility of magic. And why not?
There is IMO a significant difference between wishing for (a knowing muse) and having "faith" - the latter is worthless unless one acts on that "faith".
The idea of "magic" or god, if you prefer, has been tested to a degree. During the 1300s, faith in god was the sole barrier between the Black Death and the population - during those 100 years it is estimated that 75 million people died.
In 1959, modern medicine was firmly entrenched as the answer to illness and worldwide deaths from bubonic plague dropped to 200 per year.
Now, we may like to "muse" that magic can cure illness, but if we want to escape the Black Death then antibiotics and rodent control shows better outcomes.
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#549
Posted 2013-October-28, 09:25
Winstonm, on 2013-October-28, 08:37, said:
In 1959, modern medicine was firmly entrenched as the answer to illness and worldwide deaths from bubonic plague dropped to 200 per year.
That's why god created science!
![:)](http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
#550
Posted 2013-October-28, 09:52
PassedOut, on 2013-October-28, 09:25, said:
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But why did He do it on the 2017149th day...
Didn't He have his priorities straight?
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Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#551
Posted 2013-October-28, 10:11
Trinidad, on 2013-October-28, 09:52, said:
+/- 4,000,000,000,000th days I thought? Or has the big bang theory recently been revised?
#552
Posted 2013-October-28, 10:21
helene_t, on 2013-October-28, 10:11, said:
I think Rik is referencing young earth ideology. 6000 yr ~ 2x106 days.
-gwnn
#553
Posted 2013-October-28, 11:07
Trinidad, on 2013-October-28, 04:34, said:
The gods created us - why?
We created the gods - why?
I see no purpose, just a useless circle. What do you see?
I don't see it either. We are here, and many individuals have a purpose, which might be to find a cure for cancer or be a tyrannical dictator. But as for "us, being here" for a purpose... I'm not even sure what it would mean for the whole of humanity to have a collective purpose. If there is something specific we are supposed to accomplish, I never received the memo (and I did go to Catholic school for nine years, and have read all of the Bible. So the answer is not in those places).
#554
Posted 2013-October-28, 11:08
Trinidad, on 2013-October-28, 09:52, said:
Didn't He have his priorities straight?
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Rik
If he had given it more thought, god would have invented science much earlier. Better late than never.
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The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
#555
Posted 2013-October-29, 02:09
Trinidad, on 2013-October-28, 09:52, said:
Didn't He have his priorities straight?
![;)](http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Rik
Oops... I just noted this is a Sunday. No wonder christian fundamentalists have a problem with science.
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Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#556
Posted 2013-October-30, 22:20
If your point is many others sinned in God's name, I agree. And yes the pews are full of sinners including me. Thus some of us pray for Grace.
As I yet point out you can fully believe in an afterlife and yet reject all gods.
#557
Posted 2013-October-31, 05:20
mike777, on 2013-October-30, 22:20, said:
And vice versa. What is your point?
Quote
Yes, you have mentioned this many times. Do you have a source?
#558
Posted 2013-October-31, 06:38
mike777, on 2013-October-30, 22:20, said:
Of course, there have been Christian scientists. But I think it is generally recognized that major scientific advances were made during the Enlightenment when it started to be possible to doubt the classic Christian dogma's. I think it is also recognized that Christianity has been a barrier for scientific advancement.
Most of the western scientists (Galilei, Newton, etc.) were Christians, for the simple fact that everybody was a Christian. There was not much choice.
I don't know many great scientists who converted from non-believers to Christians by actively "accepting Jesus". I do know good scientists who are Christians, but all their ancestors are Christians too.
mike777, on 2013-October-30, 22:20, said:
There are bad people everywhere: among believers and among non believers, as well as among white, black, yellow, red, short, tall, slim and fat people, among communists and capitalists, men, women, young and old.
But did any of these bad guys ("Hitler, Mao, Stalin and many others") commit their athrocities in the name of non-believing? I don't think so. That was a little bit different for -just to name one- the Spanish inquisition.
mike777, on 2013-October-30, 22:20, said:
I also make mistakes. I will try to learn from them to prevent making them again. Asking an Almighty_Being_Who_Probably_Doesn't_Exist for Grace seems like a waste of time that I could use to analyze why I went wrong to begin with and how to prevent this in the future.
mike777, on 2013-October-30, 22:20, said:
Of course. I don't see a need for a causal relationship between believing in afterlife and believing in god(s). I may have missed something, but I don't think anyone claimed there was a need for such a relationship. There seems to be a fair degree of correlation, though, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#559
Posted 2013-October-31, 08:14
Trinidad, on 2013-October-31, 06:38, said:
I also make mistakes. I will try to learn from them to prevent making them again. Asking an Almighty_Being_Who_Probably_Doesn't_Exist for Grace seems like a waste of time that I could use to analyze why I went wrong to begin with and how to prevent this in the future.
Rik
Of all the post on this thread, this one gets to the very heart of the Sam Harris argument - that reliance upon a god to directly solve man's difficulties is too often used as a simplistic proxy for the complex reality-based task of finding human answers to human problems, and such reliance on these proxies inhibits genuine human growth.
#560
Posted 2013-October-31, 09:45
Trinidad, on 2013-October-31, 06:38, said:
Except in some very unusual cases, none of which spring to mind, of course the relationship is causal. And in any case, it would require some supernatural agent to enable our consciousness to continue to exist while our brains are worm food or ashes.