[RunemPard]

Read somewhere awhile ago about a method for 1N-2S...but curious if you all feel it is worth it. The standard in Sweden is to play 3-way transfers...I have never seen a pair playing 4-way transfers.

1N-2S*
---transfer to clubs, sign-off or slam interest
---invite to 3NT
---can include any hand that would normally just jump to 3NT if you have a better use for 1NT-3NT
opener should bid 2NT with a MIN, 3C with a MAX

1N-2N*
---transfer to diamonds, any strength

1N-3C
---clubs, missing honors...invite to 3NT

1N-3D
---whatever you wish

It seems better than using 3-way transfers...but the gains don't seem all that large really. Worth it?


Gains?...
1N-2C
2H-2N/3N(promises spades now)

3D is available now that we can super-accept diamonds (currently 3D the same as 3C for us)

3NT becomes available...if we wish...

Losses?...
1N-2C
2H-2N/3N(opponents now know we have a real spades suit)

We cannot use puppet stayman...although it is possible to include an option in 1N-2S*-2N*/3C*-3D*(asking for 5cM)

Free double of 2S available to opponents if they have a good spade suit...

[DJNeill]

This "C or range ask" 2S is part of the R-M toolkit many US top players (and juniors) are using - I guess they might have taken it from Sweden if this originated there.

I think the structure is fine - you get to try for 3N with either minor, as well as transfer-then-show-shortness.

Definitely no better use for 1N-3N than "to play", if I understand you correctly.

1N-2S also allows you to make "good" quantitative tries for 6N and "bad" (via 2S) tries.

So, while the whole system is more important over 1N than this little part, it's a reasonable structure I think.

Thanks,
Dan

[RunemPard]

1N-3N*

5/5 Majors, pick a game
5/5 Majors, mild slam interest
x/y Minors, lacking major control (could keep us in/out of a good/bad 3NT contract)

the only ones I can think of atm that may be helpful I guess...but rare...

[Zelandakh]

RunemPard, on 2013-October-08, 19:21, said:

We cannot use puppet stayman...although it is possible to include an option in 1N-2S*-2N*/3C*-3D*(asking for 5cM)

Here is one option for getting Puppet Stayman, giving up only the invite with a long minor in comparison with your proposal:

1NT
==
2♣ = Puppet (including some diamond-based hands)
... - 2♦ = no 5 card major
... - ... - 2♥ = asks if 4 spades held
... - ... - ... - 2♠ = 4 spades
... - ... - ... - ... - 2NT = natural invite
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = 4+ clubs with slam interest
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 4+ diamonds with slam interest
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = GF spade raise
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = invitational spade raise
... - ... - ... - 2NT = min without 4 spades
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = 4+ clubs with slam interest
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 4+ diamonds with slam interest
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = heart shortage
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 5 spades (implies 35(32))
... - ... - ... - others = max without 4 spades
... - ... - 2♠ = shows 4 hearts, denies 4 spades
... - ... - 2NT = invite with 4-4 majors
... - ... - 3♣ = GF with 4-4/5-4 majors
... - ... - 3♦ = GF with 5+ diamonds, 4M
... - ... - 3♥ = GF with 5 clubs, 4 diamonds
... - ... - 3♠ = GF with 5 diamonds, 4 clubs
2♦ = 5+ hearts
... - 2♥ = most hands
... - ... - 2♠ = range ask - invite; or secondary clubs; or strong one-suiter with slam interest
... - ... - 2NT = invite with 4 spades
... - ... - 3♣ = secondary diamonds
... - ... - 3♦ = 5-5 majors, GF
... - ... - 3♥ = natural invite
2♥ = 5+ spades
... - 2♠ = most hands
... - ... - 2NT = natural invite
... - ... - 3♣ = secondary diamonds; or strong one-suiter with slam interest
... - ... - 3♦ = secondary clubs
... - ... - 3♥ = invite with 5-5 majors
... - ... - 3♠ = natural invite
2♠ = range ask - invite; or weak with clubs; or GF with clubs and another suit
... - 2NT = min
... - ... - 3♣ = sign off
... - ... - 3♦ = secondary hearts, GF
... - ... - 3♥ = secondary spades, GF
... - ... - 3♠ = 5-5 minors, GF
... - 3♣ = max
... - ... - 3♦ = secondary hearts, GF
... - ... - 3♥ = secondary spades, GF
... - ... - 3♠ = 5-5 minors, GF
2NT = invite with 5 spades, 4 hearts
3m = natural (one-suited) with slam interest
3♥ = GF with diamond shortage
3♠ = GF with club shortage
3NT = natural!!!
4♣ = pick a major (either for fast arrival or because we just want to RKCB)
4red = Texas, puppet to 4M
4♠ = a form of Baron range ask (usually a good invite to 6NT)
4NT = puppet to 5♣
5♣ = puppet to 5♦

Notice how the diamond hands are split up between 2♣ (2 suits) and 3♦ (one suiter) and that good club hands are similarly split between 2♠ (2 suits) and 3♣ (one suiter). The Standard structure pushes all of the hands with 2 suits through 2♣ and keeps the transfer (any 2 from 2♠, 2NT and 3♣) for only one-suiters. Some other points here are that the multi-way follow-ups after a Jacoby transfer are not required. You can play that as Standard and use 1NT - 3M for the strong one-suiters - that was also how I played it earlier. Also, there is a strong argument for playing 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3M as showing shortage and 5-4 minors rather than differentiating between minor suit lengths.

Finally, any structure that does not use 1NT - 3NT as natural is usually bad. The defenders are leading blind other than Stayman not being used. If you can only get to 3NT via 2♠ you are giving the oppnents a chance to show what the lead should be, or not be. Instead ditch Gerber and play 1NT - 4♣ as asking Opener to pick a major (part of the Texas extensions in the above structure). My little transfer rebid unit after a 2♦ transfer is also useful here too - you get 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♦ as GF with both majors, which allows a level of cue-bidding.

On your structure, if you are using 1NT - 2NT as diamonds then you can also include weak minor 2-suiters here. Just have Opener's 3♣ rebid as discouraging for diamonds and 3♦ as the positive. Also, a natural extension to using 1NT - 2♠ as your invite is to play 1NT - 2♣; 2♥ - 2♠ for the same purpose. That way you can bundle Baron hands in here too and sometimes find a minor suit slam. You can then play 1NT - 2♣; 2♥ - 2NT as clubs and 1NT - 2♣; 2♥ - 3♣ as diamonds if you wish. You can see the same idea in my 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ sequence above.

For comparison purposes, I am interested what the Standard 3-way transfer structure is that you mention. When I played normal Stayman, my preferred structure was a form of 3-way transfers (2♦ = ♥; 2♥ = ♠; 2♠ = NT; 2NT = ♣; 3m = nat invite) with the diamond hands going via 2♣. I thought that worked well and do not see any major disadvantage.

Whether any change is worth it depends a lot on how you and your partner think. For me, most of the aspects of the structure I posted feel more natural to me than Standard. Another player would see that differently. It probably will not make a huge difference in practise if you make the change or not, so just do what you and your partner find more natural and, above all, more fun.

[Lorne50]

Zelandakh, on 2013-October-09, 02:59, said:

2♠ = range ask - invite; or weak with clubs; or GF with clubs and another suit
... - 2NT = min

You could add 4N over 2N here to show a hand 4-4 in minors that would have bid 6N over a max but now wants to play in 6 of a minor if you have a good fit and decent controls in the context of a min opener. ie no longer good enough for 6N but happy to play in 4N if no good fit. I play that and find that when it comes up (about once every 5 years!) it is nearly always a top.

[Zelandakh]

Lorne50, on 2013-October-09, 09:42, said:

You could add 4N over 2N here to show a hand 4-4 in minors that would have bid 6N over a max but now wants to play in 6 of a minor if you have a good fit and decent controls in the context of a min opener. ie no longer good enough for 6N but happy to play in 4N if no good fit. I play that and find that when it comes up (about once every 5 years!) it is nearly always a top.

I do not need that in my structure because such a hand can be bid via the Baron-style follow-ups to Puppet. Those follow-ups also make the 4♠ response structure somewhat pointless too and I have also used this response as "pick a minor", the problem being that neither really comes up enough to make a difference. Since 2NT - 4♠ is the Baron style, it is probably best just to be consistent rather than risk an unfortunate accident. In any case, I absolutely love Baron-style structures in NT responses wherever there is space for them. The problem is that they can end up revealing more about declarer's hand than would be ideal if a fit does not emerge. A popular convention in the UK is to play 1NT - 2♠ as range ask Baron, which is ideal for the hand type that you are describing.