[Cyberyeti]

---

partner and I had a disagreement about this.

[Endymion77]

I play it as penalty, but many play it as responsive - a hand with enough values to compete, without 4 spades, no clear preference (maybe 4-4 in the minors).

[kgr]

 Endymion77, on 2013-October-06, 06:03, said:

I play it as penalty, but many play it as responsive - a hand with enough values to compete, without 4 spades, no clear preference (maybe 4-4 in the minors).

The responsive one for me.
(I hope partner will DBL again when I have a penalty pass).

[Cyberyeti]

 kgr, on 2013-October-06, 06:42, said:

The responsive one for me.
(I hope partner will DBL again when I have a penalty pass).

Does it matter that our style is to trap pass on some really good hands and produce the first double REALLY light when short in hearts (a 4153 will double in the passout seat first time with almost any count).

[aguahombre]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-October-06, 07:06, said:

Does it matter that our style is to trap pass on some really good hands and produce the first double REALLY light when short in hearts (a 4153 will double in the passout seat first time with almost any count).

It matters to those of us who will also do that. We have another thing to guide us; double behind a same-suit rebid (not supported in any way by his partner yet) is a strong suggestion that the opponent has made a mistake.

[Fluffy]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-October-06, 05:22, said:

[partner and I had a disagreement about this.

you are neither the first nor will be the last. Both ways are totally playable.

[Cyberyeti]

I held xxx, KQ98x, xxx, xx so you can imagine how I felt as the auction proceeded 1♥-P-P-X-2♥-X(not alerted so partner thinks it's T/O)-P-4♠. Amazingly, partner made this as he had a bit to spare (AKQxx in both blacks and Ax of ♦, good choice not to go for a slam) but I'm not sure if we'd have got more out of 2♥x (the two singleton hearts are the J and 10). Only 3 black tricks stand up but a forcing defence may cause a loss of control.

My view is that you have to double once with a bad 4153 in our style, but you don't have to double twice, so partner needs to hit 2♥ for pens if that was his intention.

[lycier]

South player,it is at fourth seat after all, as a usual,south's double showed 9hcp+,so I think it will often in danger if regard north's double as a penalty,I think north's double still is a take-out,and south player can translate this double into a cooperative penalty sometimes.

[kgr]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-October-06, 07:06, said:

Does it matter that our style is to trap pass on some really good hands and produce the first double REALLY light when short in hearts (a 4153 will double in the passout seat first time with almost any count).

We play same style, but like to be able to do 2nd DBL with f.i. 3244.
We play all DBLs are TO, except if agreed otherwise. Most important is to have an agreement
With the actual hand we pass and hope that partner will DBL again.

[aguahombre]

I am a bit surprised that responsive doubles have been carried beyond the normal OBAR situation. Not surprised by the "all doubles are takeout" people, but surprised if it is becoming standard when only one opponent keeps bidding his suit. Of course it is good for the opponents who like to keep bidding their suit.

[RSClyde]

I play that if a double could be a trap or responsive then it is responsive through 2H but no higher.

[nigel_k]

If it is responsive, then it will normally be minors and with spades you just bid them. So I don't like your partner's 4♠ either way.

[aguahombre]

 RSClyde, on 2013-October-06, 18:27, said:

I play that if a double could be a trap or responsive then it is responsive through 2H but no higher.

I fully understand what you and others play. It seems a bit strange that if I was about to defend their suit doubled I now can't do it because the guy raised his own suit up to the next level.

Of course, my partnership is so old fashioned that that if we were willing to sit a takeout double, we sit if it is redoubled also. Should we pre-alert that trying to be cute against us is less likely to work?

[ggwhiz]

 aguahombre, on 2013-October-07, 07:47, said:

Of course, my partnership is so old fashioned

Over/Under doubles is a buzzword I haven't heard in years but we still play them. They mostly applied when the opponents overcalled our 1nt opener but apply here too.

This auction is penalty for us (over their hearts) where an auction of say, 1♥ - 1♠ p - p - 2♥ passed back to 4th seat double is takeout since you are under their heart suit even though it wasn't supported.

[gszes]

I see little purpose in using the 2h x as a form of take out. The x here is much better
served by using it as penalty. 2N under these circumstances serves nicely as a
"cards" showing type bid w/o 4 spades (essentially emphasizing the minors) since it
is totally impossible that we suddenly have a hand worth a 2n call (natural) that we
did not use the first time (we did not even bid 1n). Even if this is not standard it should
be considered "bridge" and I am not sure it would even be alertable since it cannot
possibly be natural:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
(so its probably alertable sigh)

[DJNeill]

I believe at the tournament+ level this is standard as responsive. But at the club level or below (they have a basement sometimes) it is standard penalty.

[aguahombre]

 DJNeill, on 2013-October-07, 20:47, said:

I believe at the tournament+ level this is standard as responsive. But at the club level or below (they have a basement sometimes) it is standard penalty.

We, who have posted above, thank you for your evaluation of our level.

[Zelandakh]

 gszes, on 2013-October-07, 10:49, said:

since it
is totally impossible that we suddenly have a hand worth a 2n call (natural) that we
did not use the first time (we did not even bid 1n).

Are you suggesting that North cannot hold a balanced hand up to 14ish or that there is no such a hand would ever want to make a natural invitation? Or did you mean that the requirements to make a direct overcall in NT are the same as the requirements for bidding NT after partner makes a takeout double? It was all a little confusing in there. If the sentiment is that there is no such hand that would ever bid a natural 2NT in compaetition then I can at least empathise; but to suggest that there are no hands where such a bid makes sense would seem to me to be wrong. Playing double as something like 3244 and some values makes perfect sense - perhaps partner is sitting over there with a balanced 15+ and can sit for a huge penalty. If not then the chances of reaching the right spot are considerably better after a double than 2NT - for one thing 2♠ in a 4-3 fit might be the last making contract.

That said, penalty is surely the traditional meaning and using 2NT like this in conjunction is probably better than natural. But if partner was under 40 I would feel confident of this being responsive. Under the simple but popular "all low level doubles are takeout unless that makes no sense" agreement, this would be a simple case.

[PhilKing]

Ultimately, it doesn't matter, but if you like bunny bashing, it is right to play it as penalties.

This auction just does not occur at a high level. In a search on my database from top-level play, 1h pass pass x 2h x occurred never and the auction up to 2h exactly once in circa 18K hands. At lower levels, people pass their partner's opening bid with 0-5 points as a matter of routine and opener bulldozes on regardless, but responding on nothing is the norm at the top level (1h pass 1NT x 2h occurred twice. 1s pass 1NT x 2s occurred fairly frequntly but was never in trouble).

[ArtK78]

 aguahombre, on 2013-October-06, 12:26, said:

I am a bit surprised that responsive doubles have been carried beyond the normal OBAR situation. Not surprised by the "all doubles are takeout" people, but surprised if it is becoming standard when only one opponent keeps bidding his suit. Of course it is good for the opponents who like to keep bidding their suit.

Astonished is more like it. To me, the double of 2♥ is a penalty double. Furthermore, I am astonished that any partnership (other than a new partnership) would not have discussed this situation.

 DJNeill, on 2013-October-07, 20:47, said:

I believe at the tournament+ level this is standard as responsive. But at the club level or below (they have a basement sometimes) it is standard penalty.

I also thank you for your evaluation of our level. I have only been playing at the highest levels for 40 years. Maybe I will learn standard tournament methods some time soon.

If one has a responsive double type hand, one can bid a suit. Obviously, it would be nice to bid two or three suits at once by making a responsive double, but some times you can't show what you have.

The one hand where you have a problem in direct seat and in response to a reopening double if you play responsive doubles here is when you have a penalty double. And, given the auction, that is not an unlikely possibility.

I can see that responsive doubles could be useful on some hands, but I can deal with the loss of a responsive double. The loss of a penalty double here is something I cannot live without.

And, by the way, this may not happen often in higher level play, but it does happen - especially at matchpoints.