[bd71]

---

How do you play 4N here? Is it ace-asking or to play?

Actually, the more precise question is that assuming you are NOT playing Kickback, how do you think 4N should be played here (i.e. if it's not an ace-ask, then there is no ace-ask available)?

Would your answer change in any way if the pre-empt suit were a major...1C-(3M)-4M-(P)-4N ?

[helene_t]

It may be easier to have the simple rule that once a suit has been agreed, 4NT is RKC. But on the first auction you can usually get away with a 4♥ cuebid whenever you might have wanted to use RKC, which means that 4NT can be natural. Especially at MP, and especially if 1♣ can be a doubleton, I think that's better.

[Fluffy]

my meta rule: when the fit is a minor 4NT is blackwood if at least one control has been bid (or jump).

Does 4♦ promise control in diamonds? it does not although it is hard to see why no thrump double was used if he has 2 or more low diamonds.

[gszes]

think of it this way--4N to play aims at a very very teeny tiny target (a bit bigger at MP)
where the hand makes exactly 4n and 5d fails. In order to shoot at this very difficult to
see target we essentially must give up on slam exploration. It is just too much to give
up for such a small opportunity.

Save your cue bidding for hands where you cannot take control and use 4n rkc when
you can take control. This is especially important at IMPS but still important at MP.

[kgr]

I thought 4NT is to play (we play 1C can be a doubleton) and you should cue first to before RKC.
But that becomes less and less useful when the bidding goes:
1C-(3H)-4H
1C-(3S)-4S
1D-(3H)-4H
1D-(3S)-4S
So, maybe it is better to have RKC in all these sequences.

[bd71]

gszes, on 2013-October-06, 08:45, said:

think of it this way--4N to play aims at a very very teeny tiny target (a bit bigger at MP)
where the hand makes exactly 4n and 5d fails. In order to shoot at this very difficult to
see target we essentially must give up on slam exploration. It is just too much to give
up for such a small opportunity.

Save your cue bidding for hands where you cannot take control and use 4n rkc when
you can take control. This is especially important at IMPS but still important at MP.

We are trying to tune our bidding approach to matchpoints, for what it's worth (I recognize that was not in the OP). And I think the target is more than "a bit bigger" there...4N will be superior to 5C many many times.

Also, not sure it is right to say we'd be giving up on slam bidding entirely if we have no ace-ask. Even with no ace-ask is available, we can still cue-bid our way to slam. AND, the very interesting meta-rule proposed by Fluffy (4N=ace-ask if you first cue-bid) seems like it adds to the arsenal.

[whereagles]

4NT to play only makes sense if a fit has been looked for, and not found. In this case there is a fit, namely clubs. So 4NT should be ace ask.

If 4D were, say, majors, then 4NT would be to play. I.e. "I got 2245" (or thereabouts).

[wyman]

I play 4N as ace-asking in this auction for simplicity -- our meta rules (unless others apply more clearly):

- if we've found a fit, 4N is ace-asking (unless in a situation where another kind of 'wood applies)
- If we've not found a fit and 4N may be keycard or may be quant, it is quant so long as 4N-er had another (forcing) way to set trumps.

As you point out, the former is almost surely not optimal for MPs, but we live with it.

[Zelandakh]

If no Kickback is allowed then 4NT as RKCB seems the simplest and not at all worse than natural. On hands where 4NT natural would be better than 5♣, perhaps Responder has to double instead of bidding 4♦ proactively. If Kickback is allowed, an interesting alternative might be 4♥ asking and 4NT as Last Train (as opposed to a heart cue). On the 1♣ - (3♠) - 4♠ sequence, 4NT should probably be Last Train whichever way you play 4NT in the other auctions.