[RunemPard]

I have been interested in learning how to use them, however, with varied articles online, I am a little confused and have some questions for those who play/have played the system. If I choose to play them, I would most likely be using a 15-17 or 14-16 NT range. The main benefits I would like to gain are to have unbalanced suit openings and to show (17)18-19 at the 1 level. My main concern about this is the 1M openings. I mostly play MPs at clubs here in Sweden with the occasional monthly team match. This would mean putting all balanced 5-card suited hands into 1NT or 1♣. I also have a few other questions that I will put below.


[1]Does putting all balanced 5 card ♦♥♠ hands into 1C hurt at any scoring?
[2]How much does the unbalanced only openings help?
[3]If I do put all 5 card balanced hands into 1♣, how do we find them?
[4]Should we reply 1M after partner bids 1♦/1♥ with 2-3 and a 12-14, or only 3 card support?
[5]If we do remove all balanced hands, what are good uses of the 2NT rebid by opener in common situations?
[6]Good uses of 1♣-1♠, 1♣-1NT, and 1♣-2x

I know these are a lot of questions...feel free to answer any you wish. I have read articles online, but they mostly add to my confusion...

Thanks,

Don

[paulg]

I have not played this system but ulven wrote a Bridge World article proposing it and, of course, Welland/Auken won the Vanderbilt playing a more extreme version (their definition of balanced is even looser). I do put 5-card diamond suits into my 1♣ opener.

[1]Does putting all balanced 5 card ♦♥♠ hands into 1C hurt at any scoring?

Obviously you are going against the field at matchpoints. This is normally regarded as a bad thing.

[2]How much does the unbalanced only openings help?

No experience of this except with our 1♦ opener, where it helps quite a lot but has required a significant amount of work. As you don't need a 1NT rebid it does make conventions like Gazzilli integrate easily.

[3]If I do put all 5 card balanced hands into 1♣, how do we find them?

I don't think you do. Welland has a lot of relays available and perhaps these can find them, but I think the principle is that your hand is balanced.

[4]Should we reply 1M after partner bids 1♦/1♥ with 2-3 and a 12-14, or only 3 card support?

We complete the transfer with a weak notrump and 2-3 card support. The advantage is that this releases the 2NT.

[5]If we do remove all balanced hands, what are good uses of the 2NT rebid by opener in common situations?

Over 1♣ and 1♦ openers we use it to show either 3-card support with a 6-card minor or 4-card support and 5-card minor. The first is commonly known as the Bridge World Death Hand and it is useful when it comes up.

[6]Good uses of 1♣-1♠, 1♣-1NT, and 1♣-2x

After some experimentation we play 1♣-1♠ as 5-11, no major. Over this opener can rebid 2♦ to show the strong balanced hand. We play 1♣-1NT as a game-forcing relay and 1♣-2♣ as game forcing with 5+ diamonds.

[gnasher]

RunemPard, on 2013-October-03, 09:50, said:

[6]Good uses of 1♣-1♠, 1♣-1NT, and 1♣-2x

Some people just play 1♠ as diamonds and 1NT+ the same as in their favourite natural system.

I like
1♠ = less than invitational with no major, or
          game-forcing with diamonds
1NT = invitational+ with clubs
2♣ = invitational with diamonds
2♦ = weak jump shift in a major, or
          balanced without a major, strong enough for a slam-try opposite a weak notrump
2♥ = invitational+ balanced, but not strong enough for 2♦
2♠ = both minors, less than invitational
2NT = weak with clubs

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2013-October-03, 10:29

[Kungsgeten]

If you know Swedish I can recommend these system notes by Tobias Bende: http://bridge.winge....c/5542_v3.1.pdf

This system may not be optimal, but there's some neat ideas and would work as a foundation. They do not put 5M332 into 1C though.

[helene_t]

I don't think it's that great an idea to put all 5332 hands in the 1♣ opening. The 1♣ opening is overloaded enough already in a natural 5cM system. Transfers help you to sort out more handtypes in an uncontested auction, but you also have to be able to bid effectively after interference.

[lowerline]

This is my suggestion:

• Open all balanced hands without a 5crd suit (unless clubs) outside your 1nt range with 1♣. Add to this all 5♦332 above your 1nt range and all 4441 without singleton ♣.
• Then your 1♦ opening guarantees a 5crd suit, unless precisely 4-4-4-1. Balanced 5332 is only possible when below the 1nt range.
• The 1M openings can still be 5332 when outside the 1nt range. Use Gazzilli to help out when above the 1nt range.

I believe this distributes the hand patterns nicely over the 1-level openings, whether you choose to play transfers after 1♣ or not...

Steven

[fromageGB]

My take on the points you raise is as follows :

[1]Does putting all balanced 5 card ♦♥♠ hands into 1C hurt at any scoring?
I think it is a big mistake to put 5 card majors into 1♣. The primary benefit of transfers (for me) is that you find the length and strength of the major fits, and you destroy this objective if you lose opener's major. By all means put a 5 card diamond suit in, I do because I like 1♣ to be (semi-)balanced, while 1♦ guarantees 6 diamonds or a singleton/void elsewhere.

[2]How much does the unbalanced only openings help?
My 1M may be balanced or unbalanced, so no comment there, but having a shortage diamond helps considerably in hidden ways. Contrary to paulg, I do use a 1NT rebid to say "you've hit my shortage", and it is simple and helpful : responder knows not to repeat the suit (that acts as a game invitation for a 15/16 opener), and can bid any new suit at the two level to play, knowing of a fit.
Another benefit of a shortage diamond is that when you do open 1♣, you are guaranteeing at least 2 cards in each major. This helps finding the major fits effectively. Another is that if you open 1♦ and rebid 2♣, you guarantee 10 cards in the minors.

[3]If I do put all 5 card balanced hands into 1♣, how do we find them?
Don't know, never explored the idea, but I am convinced there is no room to do it.

[4]Should we reply 1M after partner bids 1♦/1♥ with 2-3 and a 12-14, or only 3 card support?
You pick your method to fit the whole scheme. I much prefer completing with 12-14 and 2 or 3. If 1NT then shows 17/18 and 2 or 3 you have transfers available, and an advantage not mentioned by Paul is that a very weak responder can pass 1M with a 5 card suit (of course opener can then compete with 2M if 3 card).

[5]If we do remove all balanced hands, what are good uses of the 2NT rebid by opener in common situations?
In reply to an initial major transfer, Paul's comment is good, but as I play a 15/16 1NT opening, I prefer 1NT = 17/18 and 2NT = 19. Crude, but I prefer 1NT to not be a 3 point range, which enables it to be passed more often rather than risking a higher level when an invitation is declined.

In reply to 1♠ relay (see below) we have 1NT = 12-14 and 2NT = 17/18. We use an artificial 2♥ opener's rebid to puppet 2♠ to enable opener to bid 2NT with 19.

[6]Good uses of 1♣-1♠, 1♣-1NT, and 1♣-2x
After trying different methods, we have settled on one that that is very good at defining the major holdings :

1♣ 1♠ = relay to hear what opener rebids (2♣ = 6 cards, 1NT = 12-14, 2NT = 17/18). This is used for any responder hand with a minor, or with a balanced hand with no 4 card major. After 1♣ 1♠ 1NT, 2♣/2♦ = long suit to play, 2♥/2♠ = game invitation with 5+ cards in the corresponding minor (responder has denied a major) to which opener denying the game can play in 2NT or 3m, or 3♣/♦ = GF slam suggestion.

1♣ 1NT = 54xx or 45xx less than invitational hand with 9 cards in the majors. Opener bids a 4 card major or denies with 2♣ for responder to then transfer to the 5 card major.

1♣ 2♣ = game invitation or better with two 4-card majors. Game refused, but fit found, plays in 2M.

1♣ 2♦ = 5-5 majors any strength.

1♣ 2♥/♠ = 6 cards up to an 8 count. A 9-12 count transfers then raises to 2M. (3M then invites for 11/12)

We adopted these measures to get both majors in play, with the associated strength, before 4th hand opponent comes in with a minor bid. Otherwise interference makes it impossible to find a fit at the less than game level in the initially unbid major.

Different uses cater for different things. These bids come up often, and get good matchpoint results frequently.

[glen]

fromageGB, on 2013-October-04, 17:28, said:

[3]If I do put all 5 card balanced hands into 1♣, how do we find them?
Don't know, never explored the idea, but I am convinced there is no room to do it.

I suggest watching lots of Auken-Welland (jcmax, roy on bridgebase)

fromageGB, on 2013-October-04, 17:28, said:

... Another benefit of a shortage diamond is that when you do open 1♣, you are guaranteeing at least 2 cards in each major ...

what do you open with 1-4-2-6 (6♣s)?

[karlson]

My experience has been that the unbalanced diamond is not particularly effective. The main benefit is supposed to be that responder can raise to a higher level in competition, but in practice, responder often has a 4-card major that he doesn't want to bury, so he doesn't necessarily want to blast to a high diamond contract. Meanwhile you end up selling out to 2M after opening 1♣ with a 9-card diamond fit. I now play that the 1♦ opening, if balanced, just guarantees 4 good diamonds. This seems to raise the frequency, still allow responder to compete a little more than in standard, and still allows you to open 1♣ on non-descript hands, concealing your shape if you get to 3n or 4M.

On the other hand, playing 1M unbalanced could be quite interesting, since now responder can raise an extra level quite often. I suspect however that there would be very common losses from playing 1N instead of 2M. Then again, I'm not going to argue with Auken-Welland's success.

I'm a big fan of these responses (especially if 1♣ can have 5 diamonds):
1♣-1♠ 4+♣
1♣-1n 4+♦ NF
1♣-2♣ 6+♦, weak or GF (can include 5♦ GF if you like)
1♣-2♦ 6♦ invitational

This lets opener compete quite often to the 3-level if next hand bids 2M, a not uncommon scenario when responder denies one. Even more so after 1♣-x.

[fromageGB]

glen, on 2013-October-04, 18:53, said:

what do you open with 1-4-2-6 (6♣s)?

Sorry, I meant when 1♣ is balanced. With a 6 card club suit I open 1♣ and normally repeat clubs, and if 4xy6 would rebid 1♠ over 1♦ = hearts, if x<3. With hearts, x4y6 rebids 2♥ over 1♥ = spades only if 17+ type hand, otherwise bids 2♣.

My opening priority is
1♥/♠ with 5
1♣/♦ with 6 - and normally rebid the suit
1NT = 15/16 denies a singleton/void
1♦ if singleton/void outside diamonds
1♣ if all else fails.
In this way when you do open 1♣ by default it will always be (semi) balanced. But a 1♣ may be unbalanced if 6 cards.

karlson, on 2013-October-04, 19:35, said:

My experience has been that the unbalanced diamond is not particularly effective. The main benefit is supposed to be that responder can raise to a higher level in competition, but in practice, responder often has a 4-card major that he doesn't want to bury, so he doesn't necessarily want to blast to a high diamond contract.

Not my experience, I find it effective, but I don't bury a 4 card major. We positively look for major fits, and as 1♦ as I play it may be only 3 cards in extreme circumstances ({41}35), blasting to a diamond contract is not the purpose, even though 1♦ is usually 4 or more.

Using the opening hierarchy above, when you open 1♦ you will have one of 3 hand types : long diamonds (rebid ♦), 10 cards in the minors (rebid ♣), or 3 suited. If this last, and not strong, raise partner's major. It will occasionally be on a 3 card support, but you have a shortage and will be ruffing in the short trump hand. And partner is allowed to have a 5 card suit!

Quote

Meanwhile you end up selling out to 2M after opening 1♣ with a 9-card diamond fit.

Yes, this does happen sometimes, but I prefer responder showing both majors to showing weak diamonds. I tried 1NT showing diamonds, but the problem of missing a second major is greater IMO. That also wrongsides a 1NT.

[mgoetze]

karlson, on 2013-October-04, 19:35, said:

My experience has been that the unbalanced diamond is not particularly effective. The main benefit is supposed to be that responder can raise to a higher level in competition,

I always thought the main benefit should be freeing up the 1NT rebid to allow more effective constructive auctions. There are a lot of different ways to use that space, though, and it's quite unclear which is best.

[mgoetze]

I've always meant to finish this writeup of the system I stole from karlson and others before publishing it but I haven't made any serious progress in the last two years so I may as well show what I have so far...

http://bridge.mgoetze.net/21twalsh.pdf

It's horribly incomplete but oh well.

[karlson]

mgoetze, on 2013-October-05, 10:42, said:

I always thought the main benefit should be freeing up the 1NT rebid to allow more effective constructive auctions. There are a lot of different ways to use that space, though, and it's quite unclear which is best.

Since not being able to play 1n with a 3-suiter short in responder's major seems like a negative to me, I haven't been all that impressed with any of the proposed structures.

[fromageGB]

karlson, on 2013-October-05, 23:58, said:

Since not being able to play 1n with a 3-suiter short in responder's major seems like a negative to me, I haven't been all that impressed with any of the proposed structures.

fromageGB, on 2013-October-04, 17:28, said:

Contrary to paulg, I do use a 1NT rebid to say "you've hit my shortage", and it is simple and helpful : responder knows not to repeat the suit (that acts as a game invitation for a 15/16 opener), and can bid any new suit at the two level to play, knowing of a fit.

Playing in 1NT is not unusual. It is the default contract when responder does not have a second suit.

[steve2005]

fromageGB, on 2013-October-05, 05:09, said:

Sorry, I meant when 1♣ is balanced. With a 6 card club suit I open 1♣ and normally repeat clubs, and if 4xy6 would rebid 1♠ over 1♦ = hearts, if x<3. With hearts, x4y6 rebids 2♥ over 1♥ = spades only if 17+ type hand, otherwise bids 2♣.

My opening priority is
1♥/♠ with 5
1♣/♦ with 6 - and normally rebid the suit
1NT = 15/16 denies a singleton/void
1♦ if singleton/void outside diamonds
1♣ if all else fails.
In this way when you do open 1♣ by default it will always be (semi) balanced. But a 1♣ may be unbalanced if 6 cards.


Not my experience, I find it effective, but I don't bury a 4 card major. We positively look for major fits, and as 1♦ as I play it may be only 3 cards in extreme circumstances ({41}35), blasting to a diamond contract is not the purpose, even though 1♦ is usually 4 or more.

Using the opening hierarchy above, when you open 1♦ you will have one of 3 hand types : long diamonds (rebid ♦), 10 cards in the minors (rebid ♣), or 3 suited. If this last, and not strong, raise partner's major. It will occasionally be on a 3 card support, but you have a shortage and will be ruffing in the short trump hand. And partner is allowed to have a 5 card suit!


Yes, this does happen sometimes, but I prefer responder showing both majors to showing weak diamonds. I tried 1NT showing diamonds, but the problem of missing a second major is greater IMO. That also wrongsides a 1NT.

Basically follow this hierarchy for opening. The two exceptions being:
-(41)35 hands are opened 1♣ and you must rebid 2♣ on a 5 card suit if responder bids 1♠. However, 1♦ has at least 4 cards
-with reversing values and a 5 card major/♦ and a lower ranking 6+ card suit will open the 6 card suit. Also open 1♣ if unbalanced with 5♣4♦ and reversing values.

For responses to 1♣ use 1♠ as a catchall denying a 4-card major, weak ♣ raises, weak and INV 6 card ♦.
1N if 5-4 in the majors with 5-9 hcp.

1N rebid after a 1♦/1♥ response to 1♣ is 17-19 hcp balanced (denies 4 card support), will complete transfer with 3-4 card support and minimum strength, while 2N is the Bridge World hand of death

As to the original questions, opening 1♣ on balanced hand with a 5 card major doesn't work, opening with 5♦ is fine yes you will lose ♦ fit often but playing in NT ok.

Don't think using 1♣ to handle 2N opening types is wise, too many changes to system would be required. If you really want to use 2N for something else, could use Kokish relays with your 2♣ openings and squeeze extra ranges of NT in there. Other option for 2N openings, add a strong option to a Multi 2♦ if your playing that.

[ulven]

steve2005, on 2013-October-06, 06:54, said:

As to the original questions, opening 1♣ on balanced hand with a 5 card major doesn't work.

I don't know of your practical experience of this but being someone who has played this on every level (including winning a bronze medal at the open europeans) I can assure all interested that it works.
You need to work out the subsequent auctions and if these are substandard you're more likely to get bad results.

[steve2005]

The Italians open 1M with 5M332 no problem.

so enlighten me you have min hand 13 hcp 5♠3♥2♦3♣
you open 1♣ partner responds 1♠ you rebid 1N with a balanced min. now responder with balanced 5-6 hcp and 3♠ must surely pass and you miss 5-3 fit.

maybe you rebid 2♠ this looks awkward (probably not right), seems like your starting auction one-level higher. Now responder with weak hand and 0-1♠ will look to try to play in a minor at 3-level. If you open 1♠ and use a forcing 1N you can try to find a spot at 2-level.

maybe there is a scheme that will work, but there are lots of schemes to handle 5M332 hands after 1M opening like Gazzilla.

[ulven]

As you're probably aware of, everything is a matter of tradeoffs. You will not always end up in the best partscore, but there are a bunch of other benefits if you use the space well.
You can look up my article in TBW to read more about plus/minus. You take your pick what's best suited for you. I'm not trying to convert anyone.

Let me just say that sometimes there's a difference between theory and practise of what gives you the best results.
And if someone asks if this is playable or not and you state that it isn't, and I know it is, I'm willing to to put that in print.
(It also seems to work really well for Welland-Auken.)

[glen]

steve2005, on 2013-October-06, 13:21, said:

The Italians open 1M with 5M332 no problem.

so enlighten me you have min hand 13 hcp 5♠3♥2♦3♣
you open 1♣ partner responds 1♠ you rebid 1N with a balanced min. now responder with balanced 5-6 hcp and 3♠ must surely pass and you miss 5-3 fit.

maybe you rebid 2♠ this looks awkward (probably not right), seems like your starting auction one-level higher. Now responder with weak hand and 0-1♠ will look to try to play in a minor at 3-level. If you open 1♠ and use a forcing 1N you can try to find a spot at 2-level.

maybe there is a scheme that will work, but there are lots of schemes to handle 5M332 hands after 1M opening like Gazzilla.

so enlighten me you have 15 hcp 5♠3♥2♦3♣
you open 1NT responder with balanced 5-6 hcp and 3♠ must surely pass and you miss 5-3 fit

but many world class partnerships open 1NT with a five card major, how can they not see your viewpoint?

[fromageGB]

glen, on 2013-October-06, 14:55, said:

but many world class partnerships open 1NT with a five card major, how can they not see your viewpoint?

1NT benefits the minor fits on weak part score hands, and it quite often makes no difference, or hardly any, to lose the major in IMPs. Many of these players will be playing predominantly IMPs, I guess. But play the vast majority of your bridge at MP and lose the major fits at your peril. I never miss the 5-3 major fit, and playing in 2♠ on a 5-2 fit is no disaster when it (often) makes, equalling the minor contracts making 9 tricks and beating those making 8.