[Hilver]

Teams
S / all red

North and South hold:

North
♠ Q
♥ Q 9 7 5 2
♦ A K 8
♣ 10 5 4 3

South
♠ A J 9 5 3
♥ A K J 8 6
♦ -
♣ A 8 6

The bidding:
South North
1♠ 2♥
4♦ 4♥
all pass

1♠ = 11-19 HCP, 5+-card ♠
2♥ = 10+ HCP, 5+-card ♥
4♦ = singleton or void in ♦, heart support, slam interest in ♥

What went wrong in missing 6♥? Any suggestion?

Thx

Jan

[paulg]

South has to do more and 6♥ seems more reasonable than the final pass. From South's perspective, what hand can North have where slam is worse than a finesse?

[paulg]

South has to do more and 6♥ seems more reasonable than the final pass. From South's perspective, what hand can North have where slam is worse than a finesse?

[Cyberyeti]

paulg, on 2013-September-30, 05:48, said:

South has to do more and 6♥ seems more reasonable than the final pass. From South's perspective, what hand can North have where slam is worse than a finesse?

Worst hand N can have is xxx, Qxxxx, AQ, Qxx where it's a lot worse than a finesse but I agree S should do more. While I don't think S can find out about N's stiff spade to bid the grand, the small should be bid, possible continuation

4♠(cue)-5♦(cue, specifically A opposite known shortage)
5N (anything else ? no K♠)-6♦(K as well as A, no club control)
6♥

How would we bid this:

1♠-2♥
2N (GF not necessarily balanced)-3♣(nat-ish, may be Hxx, but ♦ will be worse if it is)
3♥-4♦(double ♦cue, no black high card, we use 3N to replace the most expensive cue so 4♦ = AK and no black high card)
4N(♠ cue, 4♠=keycard)-5♥(nothing else to show, no minor suit Q as I've already denied K♣ and shown K♦)
5N(show me something you haven't already shown me, I don't have K♠ as I'd have bid 5♠ if I had)-7♥(well you must be looking for a stiff spade then as I've denied everything else)

[Lorne50]

Hilver, on 2013-September-30, 05:22, said:

The bidding:
South North
1♠ 2♥
4♦ 4♥
all pass

What went wrong in missing 6♥? Any suggestion?

I just replied to this in another forum ! North is minimum with a singleton in partners first suit, poor trumps, likely wasted values in diamonds and no high card in the other suit partner may have some length in so 4♥ is clearly right. On the other hand South can see slam will make opposite many minimum 2♥ bids so should make another try.

[mike777]

Forget 4d, I would just force to slam with 5d exclusion and then invite the grand with 6d. expect to end up in 6h.


We don't need to bid on the expectation partner has the worst hand possible.

[neilkaz]

South has 21 pts (16 HCP and 5 for a void with this many trump) in support of his PD's 5+ card suit and must continue over 4♥.

[keylime]

South can make one possible try at 5♣, but I can see a 2♥ call on xx Qxxxx KQJxx Qx playing SAYC and you'd be kicking yourself at six hearts.

[keylime]

South can make one possible try at 5♣, but I can see a 2♥ call on xx Qxxxx KQJxx Qx playing SAYC and you'd be kicking yourself at six hearts.

[ArtK78]

What went wrong? South must not have been looking at his/her hand during the bidding.

South must act again over 4♥. Slam is not guaranteed, but there are so many hands consistent with the auction on which slam is cold or at least has good play that South cannot pass 4♥.

[PhilKing]

keylime, on 2013-October-01, 22:53, said:

South can make one possible try at 5♣, but I can see a 2♥ call on xx Qxxxx KQJxx Qx playing SAYC and you'd be kicking yourself at six hearts.

I've certainly been in worse, and if I go off, I will point out that I have 14 cards.

[gwnn]

keylime, on 2013-October-01, 22:53, said:

South can make one possible try at 5♣, but I can see a 2♥ call on xx Qxxxx KQJxx Qx playing SAYC and you'd be kicking yourself at six hearts.

This is a great hand to justify forcing to slam from S. Even with KQJxx opposite our void we have good chances for 12 tricks!

[Zelandakh]

mike777, on 2013-October-01, 15:34, said:

Forget 4d, I would just force to slam with 5d exclusion and then invite the grand with 6d. expect to end up in 6h.

As I pointed out in the other thread, I think the 6♦ continuation over partner's 5♥ is an SSA for spades (5♠ Q ask; 5NT K ask; 6♣ club SSA; 6♦ spades SSA). General invites are all well and good looking at both hands but in the real world partner has to have some sort of idea what is required to go on. I have more sympathy with Cyberyeti's source of tricks ask - at least partner has some chance of knowing what to do.

[mike777]

Zelandakh, on 2013-October-02, 09:29, said:

As I pointed out in the other thread, I think the 6♦ continuation over partner's 5♥ is an SSA for spades (5♠ Q ask; 5NT K ask; 6♣ club SSA; 6♦ spades SSA). General invites are all well and good looking at both hands but in the real world partner has to have some sort of idea what is required to go on. I have more sympathy with Cyberyeti's source of tricks ask - at least partner has some chance of knowing what to do.

KISS given this is the natural thread:

or given pard is unlimited over 5h,
5s is q ask
5nt shows KS, grand try
6c shows KC denies KS
6d denies both, grand try.

Or you can play some more complicated toy if you remember it.

[Winstonm]

The only thing really wrong with this auction is that south needs to try again over the 4H signoff. South is the one who knows about the huge 10-card fit and all controls accounted for, so his duty should be to strongly suggest slam is still possible over the signoff bid. This conveys the point that North should look at more than just his diamond holdings and adjust his thinking toward slam - and only sign off at 5 hearts with the worst possible holding and tremendous waste in diamonds.

I think the proper bid over 4H is 5C.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I think South should just blast .

With 4 key cards what is the point of 5D-exclusion ? You know ahead of time that the reply will be 5H .
You could just go regular RKC and find out about the ♦A, but I also don't see a big advantage.

If North's points is "stuff" in ♦, you get ♣ discard(s).
If no stuff in ♦ then there must be stuff in the black suits.

[mike777]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-October-02, 17:14, said:

I think South should just blast .

With 4 key cards what is the point of 5D-exclusion ? You know ahead of time that the reply will be 5H .
You could just go regular RKC and find out about the ♦A, but I also don't see a big advantage.

If North's points is "stuff" in ♦, you get ♣ discard(s).
If no stuff in ♦ then there must be stuff in the black suits.

ok but I understand that north is unlimited after 2h.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-October-02, 17:14, said:

You could just go regular RKC and find out about the ♦A, but I also don't see a big advantage.

The advantage would be having a chance to find a grand when it is right. Maybe North has a black king or two.

mike777, on 2013-October-02, 22:00, said:

ok but I understand that north is unlimited after 2h.

But not after 4♥, which was the decision point being discussed.