[bd71]

---

Both sides playing pretty standard 2/1. Matchpoints.

Would appreciate folks thoughts on whether to bid 4♥ here.

[billw55]

Definitely 4♥ for me.

[ArtK78]

i bid 4♦ as a lead director.

I have every intention of bidding 5♥ over 4♠.

[mr1303]

I agree with ArtK78.

[Fluffy]

agree with ArtK with the exception of my nose telling me that they are not on the same wavelength about the 3♠ bid, which would make me gamble a pass.

[gszes]

4h for me I have plenty of time to bid 5d if/when the opps bid 4s but I need to
limit my hand first. Starting with 4d followed by 5h should be saved for a much
stronger hand.

[the_clown]

4♦ and pass when they bid 4♠

[gwnn]

How about 5H? (I wouldn't bid it at the table but sitting in my armchair it seems interesting.)

[aguahombre]

the_clown, on 2013-September-27, 05:14, said:

4♦ and pass when they bid 4♠

That would be our intention, using 4D as fit-showing and letting partner be the one to judge about further competition based on that information. Lead-directing, or slammish would be way down on our priority in these (frequent) situations.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

aguahombre, on 2013-September-27, 09:46, said:

That would be our intention, using 4D as fit-showing and letting partner be the one to judge about further competition based on that information. Lead-directing, or slammish would be way down on our priority in these (frequent) situations.

A non-jump 4D is fit-showing w/♥ ??

[ggwhiz]

gwnn, on 2013-September-27, 05:28, said:

How about 5H? (I wouldn't bid it at the table but sitting in my armchair it seems interesting.)

My pet peeve is players that bid 4♥ instead of 5 and then scratch their heads when the opps bid an auto 4♠ but that's over a stronger auction by them ie. if pard had bid 3♥ instead of 2♥.

In this case pard could be strong enough that we buy it in 4♥ or if they take the push and pard doubles it I'll respect that or take the push to 5♥ otherwise.

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-September-27, 11:11, said:

A non-jump 4D is fit-showing w/♥ ??

I wouldn't be presumptuous enough to say that is what it is ---only that it is our choice for the bid.

[suleiman22]

For me with only 5 points... I cannot force myself to go 4♥ here. I play slightly conservative and my style tells me no for this bid.

[aguahombre]

suleiman22, on 2013-September-27, 15:56, said:

For me with only 5 points... I cannot force myself to go 4♥ here. I play slightly conservative and my style tells me no for this bid.

I don't think point count would enter my mind.

[MrAce]

It really escapes me too by 3 miles, 4♦ being a fit showing bid, when he is not even coming from pass. And i am one of the people who has a lot of fit showing non jump agreements.

IF pd was coming from pass, it would make more sense, of course, but i have seen some decent players who would take 4♦ natural even if pd was coming from pass. When not coming from pass, common sense tells me that it is as natural as a bid can be and, not promising anything about hearts. After all, we can just show our support to pd by supporting him, and show diamonds by bidding diamonds.

I mean....we can't just play this 4♦ as lead director or fit showing bid just because it is very handy in this topic and not mention a single thing about what we would do in another hand where pd has 6-7 diamonds and xx or xxx or x in our hearts with some decent values . A passed hand will very rarely have those diamonds with some values, if ever, depending on how light you open, so it is probably better to play it fit showing when coming from pass. But i would not lose my sleep over it, if pd wants it natural.

I would just bid 4♥ and 5 ♥, i am not letting them play 4♠ when we have 10 card fit and they have 9/10 card fit in spades, white vs red. But i still hate the idea of jumping to 5♥ now. First of all we have a chance to buy it right there at 4♥ and make while 5♥ is down. We may play 4♥ doubled instead of 5♥ doubled.

. I know, people love fancy bids, in poker they even have a name for these type of plays, i started to believe it is the same in bridge. Even if we all agree, for the sake of argument, that 4 ♦ is fit showing even by an unpassed hand, this bid actually can harm our side in various ways. Every information that we send to pd, legally, will also be send to 2 opponents. One last issue for excessive lead directors is that, it may actually put you in postions where you can not read the ♦ lead of your pd, while it would be very easy to read it, had we not shown the lead. It becomes problem when pd leads the shown suit, and you don't know whether he led it because you told him to or he is simply leading his singleton. It is like digging your own grave, and i admit i found myself in this grave a lot in past. That is why i would not even bid 5♦ if they bid 4♠ over 4♥. But 4♥ and 5♦ is as close as it gets in this auction that i can live with. Not 4 ♦ or direct 5♥.

[Fluffy]

4♦ is natural, but partner raising means we are in a double fit hand and makes it right. Partner passing puts us in -150 maybe we gamble that it will be ok.

[MrAce]

Really ? When pd bids a suit at 4 level the first time in a competitive auction do we need 4+ cards to raise him ? 3 cards ? 2 cards ? Stiff honor ? Hx ?

Since when we started to risk our ability to play 4 major, in our 10 card fit ? And for what ? What is the gain ? We don't even know what is the best lead for our side! Hell we don't even know if they are gonna bid 4♠ or not.

I am very well aware that there are hands which your side will benefit more than them by bidding 4♦ but be aware that there are also hands where they will benefit more.

What is 3♠ ? Preemptive or limit ? Why would i allow LHO to bid 4♥ cue, which will be a vital bid in some hands for them, when opener has a giant, not neccesarilly in hcp but in shape or combined. I said 4♥ can be a vital bid for opener, because they are not in FP auction, even if 3♠ is limit and not weak. Why would i allow opener to double 4♦ to express something in their agreement, when their options are reduced over 4♥.

But my opinions about whether it is good to show the lead or not in this hand is irrelavant. However, if you are really in a fancy contest and wanna put your signature on the outcome of the result by showing ♦ lead, bid 4♥ and ...

a- If they do not bid 4♠ or double you in 4♥, or simply sit on 4♥ then it is a win because you did not give them any info that might help them to judge better, when pd would not use it all, since he is not allowed to lead at the same time he is declaring, You did not risk to play a funny ♦ suit at 4 level. You did not risk coming to 5 level when pd raises you in diamonds and you returning to 5♥ when they were about to double you in 4♥.

b-If they bid 4♠ it is still much better than direct 4♦ You will always have your turn again to fancy if you want to. . You just showed heart fit and then showed the lead when they bid 4 spade. You did not give them i navigator by broadcasting your shape if they bid 5♠. Then again, keep in mind it is not hard to construct hands where ♦ lead can be fatal, or can be good lead which failed because while we thought we helped pd, we were not able to see he led his stiff and thought he led because we told him to.


I don't even know why we are arguing for a bid, which is natural and usually denies ♥ fit unless 4♦ is forcing and we are sure that they will bid 4♠ and we will never be let to play 4♥...Fancy syndrome

[RSClyde]

4♦ is definitely a lead director, for me, by a passed hand. That not being the case, I'm just going to bid 4♥ and live with it. I really don't see convoluting the auction just to get a lead. This can easily be our hand and 4♦ is just a joke if it passes out, or partner raises and 5♥ was too high. Especially since, a heart lead doesn't seem like a guaranteed disaster. Partner can easily have an honor sequence in which case we're fine. With a broken suit, he doesn't have to lead it, but even if he does, it may not be all that helpful for declarer, even if he cashes the dreaded ace from AQ 6th, if declarer has the Kx he may have nothing to pitch on it anyway, if dummy has it he may have always had time to lead towards it.

[akwoo]

Given that I don't need partner's input as to whether to play 5♥ or not, I'm going to pass and hope opps pass it out in 3♠. If they bid 4♠ I'll bid 5♥.

[RSClyde]

Another thought on this topic: those who say they would bid diamonds because they are willing to compete to 5♥ anyway. Do you realize how much you need to happen for this to be right?
First of all the other order seems more logical: first compete to 4♥, then bid 5♦ over 4♠ as a clear lead director. But ignoring that, if we're bidding 5♥ anyway, we only need a lead director if they bid 5♠. Now do you really think, that the opponents are bidding 5♠ over 5♥ on a hand where a heart lead is damaging? Who bids 5♠ over 5♥ with wastage in hearts?