[fred]

flytoox, on Jan 27 2005, 09:32 PM, said:

Fred, this is thought-provoking. Does same argument apply to Bergen raise? For example, 1M-P-3C-?? 3C=7-9HCP 4card raise.

Thanks in advance.


Hongjun

The same argument applies to some extent, but there are other factors in play here as well:

1) In the Drury auction you are necessarily a passed hand (because the person on your right has to be a passed hand to use Drury). The same is not true in the case of a 3C Bergen raise.

2) Drury auctions take place at the 2-level and takeout doubles after the opps have had a Drury auction are pretty much balancing bids that normally result in you playing at the 3-level (or in 2S if hearts is there suit) or in you pushing the opps to the 3-level. On the other hand, a Bergen raise commits the opps to playing at the 3-level so if you make a takeout double in these auctions your side will usually end up at the 4-level if you are going to play the hand. In other words, you are not balancing anymore - you are expressing game interest when you make a takeout double at this level.

3) Opener's range is the same regardless of whether or not responder bids Drury or makes a Bergen raise, but responder usually has less in high cards when he makes a Bergen 3C raise. This increases the chances that the deal "belongs to you" in terms of balance of high card power. Also, opener will know this and may try to steal from you with an advance sacrifice with a hand like:

AKQxxxx
Qxxx
xx
x

So if you wait over a Bergen raise to see where the opps end up and try to judge how strong your partner is based on the opp's bidding, you will have trouble judging accurately - opener may be bidding game on shape, not on high cards. The same is true in the case of Drury, but here responder has more in high cards (which reduces your game prospects) and, in the Drury auction, it is not especially likely that the deal belongs to you at a high level regardless (because you are a passed hand and because your partner could not overcall).

In my view it is best to play the double of Bergen constructive raise as a "takeout double", but the double of a Bergen limit raise as a lead directing double. Most experts in the USA seem to agree with this view, but I do not exactly have a strong opinion about any of this.(whereas my opinion about the Jacoby transfer situation could be characterized as very strong and my opinion about the Drury situation could be characterized as quite strong).

Sorry if the above answer is not especially coherant - your question was a tough one Hongjun

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[TimG]

fred, on Jan 27 2005, 02:03 PM, said:

1) About 50% of the time opener will either jump to game or make some kind of slam investigation his partner uses Drury.

2) About 25% of the time opener will bid 2D in response to Drury (saying "I have a real opening bid, but my hand is not strong enough to commit to game opposite a minimum Drury response").

3) About 25% of the time opener with rebid 2 of his major in response to Drury (saying "I do not have a real opening bid").

Doesn't the type of hand you hold change these percentages? For example, if you have a constructive takeout of their major (even given the restriction that you are a passed hand) isn't opener less likely to be making a slam try or jump to game? I don't mean to suggest this will change your conclusion, just that what you hold will affect these percentages.

Tim

PS To another poster's mention of the possibility of the opponents being in a 4-3 fit: if that is the case and I have a takeout double of their major, partner will know what to do (with his five trumps).

[flytoox]

fred, on Jan 27 2005, 10:50 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jan 27 2005, 09:32 PM, said:

Fred, this is thought-provoking. Does same argument apply to Bergen raise? For example, 1M-P-3C-?? 3C=7-9HCP 4card raise.

Thanks in advance.


Hongjun

The same argument applies to some extent, but there are other factors in play here as well:

1) In the Drury auction you are necessarily a passed hand (because the person on your right has to be a passed hand to use Drury). The same is not true in the case of a 3C Bergen raise.

2) Drury auctions take place at the 2-level and takeout doubles after the opps have had a Drury auction are pretty much balancing bids that normally result in you playing at the 3-level (or in 2S if hearts is there suit) or in you pushing the opps to the 3-level. On the other hand, a Bergen raise commits the opps to playing at the 3-level so if you make a takeout double in these auctions your side will usually end up at the 4-level if you are going to play the hand. In other words, you are not balancing anymore - you are expressing game interest when you make a takeout double at this level.

3) Opener's range is the same regardless of whether or not responder bids Drury or makes a Bergen raise, but responder usually has less in high cards when he makes a Bergen 3C raise. This increases the chances that the deal "belongs to you" in terms of balance of high card power. Also, opener will know this and may try to steal from you with an advance sacrifice with a hand like:

AKQxxxx
Qxxx
xx
x

So if you wait over a Bergen raise to see where the opps end up and try to judge how strong your partner is based on the opp's bidding, you will have trouble judging accurately - opener may be bidding game on shape, not on high cards. The same is true in the case of Drury, but here responder has more in high cards (which reduces your game prospects) and, in the Drury auction, it is not especially likely that the deal belongs to you at a high level regardless (because you are a passed hand and because your partner could not overcall).

In my view it is best to play the double of Bergen constructive raise as a "takeout double", but the double of a Bergen limit raise as a lead directing double. Most experts in the USA seem to agree with this view, but I do not exactly have a strong opinion about any of this.(whereas my opinion about the Jacoby transfer situation could be characterized as very strong and my opinion about the Drury situation could be characterized as quite strong).

Sorry if the above answer is not especially coherant - your question was a tough one Hongjun

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Thanks very much Fred. Your answer is always more than I expected.