[han]

I suggest we start a poll to determine what the best Jacoby-2NT structure is. First we need some good candidates, so please submit your favorite structure. Then I'll start a new thread, and we can vote on how good the different structures are. We can give grades for how good the structures are, as well as how complex they are (where I'd say, the easier the better).

[han]

As a start I'll submit what I think are the "standard" structures:

Variant I:

3 new suit = singleton.
4 new suit = void.
4M = no shortness, minimum.
3NT = no shortness, extras.
3H= no shortness, serious extras.

Variant II:

as above, except that 3-level bids show any shortness, and 4 level bids show nice 5-card sidesuits.

[han]

As a second structure, I will submit Fred's forcing raise structure (the original structures can off course be found in his "improving 2/1" articles in the BBO library). Fred suggests 2S over 1H and 3C over 1S as the forcing raises, so that 2NT can be used for other purposes. Perhaps you can't call it "Jacoby-2NT" any more, but I think that it is still the same animal.

Over 1H-2S:

2NT = 5 trumps, extras, balanced.
3C = almost any minimum.
3D = 5 trumps, extras, unbalanced.
3H = 6+ trumps, extras, balanced.
3S = 6+ trumps, extras, singleton or void in spades.
3NT = unused.
4C = 6+ trumps, extras, singleton or void in clubs.
4D = 6+ trumps, extras, singleton or void in diamonds.
4H = 6+ trumps, minimum, balanced.

Here, balanced means no shortness.

Over 3C and 3D, responder can bid the cheapest step to ask for more information. Reponder can always find out whether opener has (i) extras values (ii) shortness (iii) extra trump length.

The structure over 1S-3C follows the same rules.

[HeartA]

1M-2N:
3X = shortness
3N = no shortness, extra
3M = no shortness, minimum
4M = no shortness, solid trumps
4X = (good) 5-card suit

[han]

Here is an easier structure that I play with some partners. 2NT can also be bid with 4-card limit raises, so the partnership should be able to stop in 3M if opener has a minimum.

3C= minimum, unbalanced.
3D= (semi)-balanced hand, not in the 1NT range (in my case either 11-13 or 17-19).
3H= extras, club shortness.
3S= extras, diamond shortness.
3NT= extras, shortness in the other major.
4-level bids = natural, semi-balanced, strength for a 1NT opener (in my case 14-16).

Over 3C, responder can bid 3D to ask for shortness, bid 3M with a limit-raise, or sign off in game without slam interest.

Over 3D, responder can bid 3M with a limit-raise, sign off in 4M, or cuebid to show slam interest opposite the 11-13 balanced hand. 3NT suggests playing there.

[han]

HeartA, on Jan 11 2005, 05:52 PM, said:

1M-2N:
3X = shortness
3N = no shortness, extra
3M = no shortness, minimum
4M = no shortness, solid trumps
4X = (good) 5-card suit

Perhaps this structure should be combined with the standard variant II as it is quite similar. What do you think?

[hrothgar]

I am assuming that we are limiting the discussion to raises that show 4+ card trump support and game foricng values.

Here is the variant that Bergen recommended

After 1S - 2NT

3♣ = Non minimums with a singleton or Big balanced/semi-balanced hands
3♦ = Non minimum two-suited hands OR hands interested in knowing responder's dist.
3♥ = All hands with voids
3♠ = All minimums with a stiff
3N = Good hands with a 6 card suit
4♣ = Decent minimum, cheapest Ace or King
4♦ = Decent minimum, cheapest Ace or King
4♥ = Decent minimum, no minor suit control
4♠ = signoff

[han]

I've seen a nice structure by Marshall Miles, but I forgot it. Does anybody know it? It probably goes something like this:

3C = extras.
3D = minimal hand without other possible bid.
3H = unspecified void, minimum.
3S = 6+ trumps, shortness, and minimum.
3NT = balanced, 18-19.
higher: good 5-card side suit, minimum.

Opener can ask for more information over 3C, 3D, 3H and 3S.

[han]

hrothgar, on Jan 11 2005, 06:00 PM, said:

I am assuming that we are limiting the discussion to raises that show 4+ card trump support and game foricng values.

I'd like to include limit+ in the discussion. I think that this is becoming increasingly more popular, and the ideas are not that different.

[inquiry]

I am extremely fond of limit+ 2nt raise. I remove from these raises balanced hands with game forcing values (range around 13+ to 16) which I use a direct 3NT for (promising balanced distribution and a nt opener type hand with support).

My rebid structure is basically that of ETM victory's Jacboy 2NT-PLUs structure.]

Opener's 3♣ rebid is "i would not accept limit game try" or "i have super slam try"
Opener's 3♦ rebid is "i would accept limit game try, but have no slam interest opposite a limit raise" - usually implies a singleton
Opener's bid above 3♦ natural, slam try.. note, 3♣ with "slam try" hand is stronger slam try than any other bid by opener.
Opener's 4 of major bid - to play with a bad hand, but wanting to be in game opposite any limit raise (think like a seven card suit....

Over 3♣, responder generally signs off with limit raise, bids game with game force hands, or tries for slam with a 3♦ bid asking opener to show shortness... opener rebids 3M with 5422 (relay ask for 4 card suit), rebids 3NT with six card suit and no shortness (most 7 card suits went to 4M immediately), rebids a suit with singleton or void.

Over 3♦, responder signs off in game with no slam interest, bids 3♥ to ask for shorness, 3♠=short other major, 3NT=no shortness, 4♣,4♦=short in bid suit. Any other starts cue-bidding. OR (and this is important), the 2NT bidder can show shortness rather than ask, by bidding 3♠ (instead of 3♥) to show shortness in other major, 3NT to show hand too good for 3NT at first (more than 16 balanced), 4♣/4♦ = shortness... So responder can show shortness (to keep partners hand undefined) when he is short, or can ask for shortness (when he doesn't have shortness of his own).

Misho and I have adopted a similar idea to jacoby 2NT plus on simple auctions that go 1m-1M-2NT== where we use 2NT to show a 4 card fit and great hand. This means our 1m-1M-2M and 1m-1M-3M are much more narrowly defined than most. We use 3♣ by responder to say, I got a horrible hand, and 3♦ to say, I have enough for game, but don't get too excited. Other bids are unchanged from the jacoby 2NT plus above.

Ben

[shanbari]

MARTEL 2NT, (it's better than traditional jacoby 2nt, i believe)


1) 3C = Minimum.
3D asks. Opener's rebids: ...

2) 3D = No splinter, some extra values, suitable for slam. (Good 15HCP+ without splinter)
3H asks...

3) 3H = Other Major splinter, extra values.
In general, when showing splinters, steps are high, middle, low (or high, low if only 2)

4) 3S = Diamond splinter, extra values.

5) 3N = Club splinter, extra values

6) 4C/4D/4OM = 5-card suit to A or K, extra values. 15hcp+

btw, fred and bergen method seems cover more, isn't it?
and i haven't fully understand ben's method yet, since it's quite long,


shan

[inquiry]

As an example of 2NT plus, let me give a hand from another thread (splinte or autosplinter).. the hand was...

1H 2NT (with balanced 18, too good for 3NT balanced support)
3C 3D
3N Pass/4H

---

• 2NT = limit raise or better, with balanced hand, good 17+
  
• 3C = would not accept game try opposite limit raise
  
• 3D = show me your distribution
  
• 3NT = six card heart suit, no short suit
  
• PAss/4H = with a six card suit and not accept game try, and with balanced distribution, we are high enough at game level. 3NT would be huge winner at matchpoints, but 4H is more realistic.

[inquiry]

shanbari, on Jan 12 2005, 11:24 AM, said:

btw, fred and bergen method seems cover more, isn't it?
and i haven't fully understand ben's method yet, since it's quite long,

I should have posted a link the professional write up of what I play... it is on the ETM Vicotory page.. here is the link...

ETM Victory's Jacoby Plus 2NT

[Gerben47]

Our responses:

1♠ - 2NT - ?
3♣ = any minimum, 3♦ relay, then bidding as with medium hands
3♦ = any maximum, responses up one step
** medium strength hands bid directly what they have:
3♥ = any 5-5 or void
->3♠ asks, 3NT = minor suit void (4♣ asks, then bid suit above void), 4x = 5-5, 4♠ = ♥ void
3♠ = singleton somewhere
-> 3NT asks, then bid your singleton (5431 / 6421 type hands)
3NT = no side 4-card suit or singleton (5332 / 6322 / 7222), 4♣ asks length of primary suit
4x = 5422 with 4 in x
4♥ = 1-suiter no side A/K

1♥ - 2♠ - ?
2NT any minimum
3♣ any maximum
3♦ any 5-5 or void
3♥ singleton
3♠ no singleton, 1-suited
3NT 4522
4x = 5422 with 4 in x
4♠ = 1-suiter no side A/K

[inquiry]

Here is a recent hand where jacoby 2NT plus where responder can ask for shortness comes in handy... of course, not a hard hand anyway.

1♥-2N
3♦-3♥
3♠-3N
4♣-5♦
5♠-7♥
Pass

---

3♦ = game accept
3♥=short ask
3♠=short spade (if spades were trumps, 3♥ still ask, and 3♠show short ♥
3N = serious
4♣=club ace or king
5♦=exclusion blackwood
5♠ = one keycard
7♥ = to accept game try, must have KQ clubs or AK of diamonds... or both

[NickToll]

Assuming 2NT as a limit-plus raise, I find the following structure simple and effective. Let's say that hearts is trump (with spades, it's similar)

3♣: game force, usually 15+; partner can:
1. show a singleton with 3♥♠NT (clubs, diamond, spades), usually implying a minimum (otherwise, Splinter at 1st round)
2. show a good suit of his own with 4♣♦, still implying a minimum (otherwise, 2/1 at 1st round)
3. relay with 3♦, asking for a singleton; opener shows it with 3♥♠NT, or cuebids starting from 4♣ with a good balanced hand

3♦: a good minimum; that is, 6 losers and/or a good shape and/or mostly top honors; responder can still suggest a really bad hand with 3♥, otherwise he bids game or cuebids (suggesting a balanced hand, see previous notes)

3♥: a bad minimum; that is, 7 losers and/or 5-3-3-2 and/or mostly secondary honors;

3♠, 4♣♦: good 10-cards 2-suiter, slam try

4♥: bad minimum with 6 trumps

3NT has no meaning: suggestions?


It seems to me that 3♦ as a "good minimum" rebid allows responder a greater flexibility, allowing him to step into 2NT with more hands, somehow weaker than usual...

[Fluffy]

My structure has the limit hands included on jacoby, my answers are as follows:

3♣ minimum or strong with ♣ shortness
3♦ shortness, game aceptance at least
3 on the other major: shortness, game aceptance at least
3 on my major: 15+ 6+ cards no shortness
3NT 15-19 5332
4x = 55+

[han]

inquiry, on Jan 13 2005, 07:09 PM, said:

Here is a recent hand where jacoby 2NT plus where responder can ask for shortness comes in handy... of course, not a hard hand anyway.

1♥-2N
3♦-3♥
3♠-3N
4♣-5♦
5♠-7♥
Pass

---

3♦ = game accept
3♥=short ask
3♠=short spade (if spades were trumps, 3♥ still ask, and 3♠show short ♥
3N = serious
4♣=club ace or king
5♦=exclusion blackwood
5♠ = one keycard
7♥ = to accept game try, must have KQ clubs or AK of diamonds... or both

I gave up on a new thread that would compare these different methods, I think it would be too difficult.

Here is how my easy structure would handle Ben's example hand:

1H-2NT (limit +)
3NT (short spade, extras) - 5D (too bad there is no room for serious 3NT)
5S (one or four) -

Now either blast 7H or ask for help in clubs with 6C.

[shanbari]

regarding to "easy" hannie mentioned above,
i would try
1H - 3S ( splinter, usually 5-6 losers)
7H, (7h bid is same logic as hannie&ben mentioned.)

fun,


shan

[han]

shanbari, on Jan 17 2005, 11:41 AM, said:

regarding to "easy" hannie mentioned above,
i would try
1H - 3S ( splinter, usually 5-6 losers)
7H, (7h bid is same logic as hannie&ben mentioned.)

fun,


shan

South is the dealer .