[Codo]

This threat has a second live, so I would leik to add some comments too:

Ben:
"Even a fair partner will open yoru hypothetical hand 1C".
Not if he is from the old Europe. We learn to open ANY hand with 2344 and the matching HCPs 1 Diamond. MAYBE we have the freedom to change our mind with D 2345 and C AKQJ OR in third hand to give a lead directing bid.

And this is not a discussion about the why and what is better, it is just the way it is taught.

Eric:
"A natural auction, would go

1D 2S
2NT 3D"

After this start, looking in my hand, (and forgetting, that 2 Spade is a weak jump quite often..),
I KNOW, that spades will be trump, because I got to know, that a strong jump shift sets the trump suit and I even have small support!
So, 3 Diamond is a cuebid without a club control and I jump to 4 Spade.
IF you can find a serious way to 7 Diamond from there, good luck.

I agree, that your way will work, if pd understands the bids like you do. But then, better don`t play with me, because I had not.

Kind Regards

Roland

[inquiry]

Hi Roland,

I said in my post in the 1c-or-1D thread I provided a link to that I open 1C with 4-4 in the minors about 15% of the time. The reason I do so is very strong club, very weak diamond, short spades. This is the hand. Fred said he tends to open 1D with this pattern, but that he would open 1C about 10% of the time. So just because you are 4-4 in the minors doesn't mean you HAVE TO open 1D.

Having said that, even if you do open 1D, what do you bid on the auction Luis was proposing....

1D-1S
1N-2D (2D = game force)
2N-3D (2N = no 3 card spade, no 4hearts, 3D=natural)

Don't you bid 3NT... with xx AKx xxxx AQxx ?
Of course you do, and that is the point (well, point two).

As for the strong jump shift, Eric is absolutely right. Most who still play strong jump shifts use them show one of two types of hands. A one-suited hand that can play opposite a singleton, or a two suited hand with strong support for partners first suit. So after 1D-2S-2NT-3D <<--- this cancels spades as trumps (any other rebid but 3D, and spades would be trumps) and sets diamonds as trumps. I myself use fit jumps, so two spades is out the question for me. But after 1D-2S, 2NT-3D, Eric's auction effectively finds the HEART AK, no club ace, and blackwood does the rest.

Ben

[inquiry]

Quote

NTC v 2.50

AKQ64 72
Q4 AK5
AJ9854 KT76
- Q863

1SP(10-17,5+) 2CL(12+,R)
3CL(14-17,5-5+DI/6+-4DI 3DI®
3SP: 5+-5+, void CL 4CL: NAB
4HE: A/K DI, 0/AK SP 4SP: NAB
4NT: 0/AK HE 5CL: NAB
5HE: 1A (DI) 5SP: NAB
6HE: Q or +1 DI, Q SP, QHE 7DI: To play

Misho

Misho.. nice auction.. but you had the wrong hand open. The hand with short spades bids first. How to bid the hand with north opening is a whole additional can of worms. I believe I would open 1D planning on bidding spades twice after that to show 6-5 distribution.

Ben

[luis]

Quote

A natural auction, would go

1D 2S
2NT 3D
3H 3S
4H 4NT
5H 7D

I challenge you to sit down your best 10 natural bidding pairs and see if they can reproduce this sequence. I'm really having a lot of fun reading "forced" creations to reach 7d. You setup spades as trumps, then bid diammonds and pretend to play in that suit. Furthermore note how opener bids 3h and 4h with AKx never never considering bidding 3nt with Q863 of clubs, then you """know""" he can't have the club ace...
So you do bid 3nt with Axxx but not with Qxxx or after 1m-2M you never play 3NT because you have to cuebid all your honors and you always pass the 3nt level.....

[luis]

Quote

However, even if partner stubbornly opened 1D instead of 1C and then insist on cue-bidding 3H over 3D with the hand in question... he still can't go wrong...as now over the 3S cue bid he can't change his mind and retreat to 3NT. He has to continue and cue-bid his club control with 4C's. Now the cat is out of the bag and one still avoids the grand slam.

Ben.... Ben..... Ben......
Your pd WILL bid 3NT because he has the clubs stopped and he will bid 3h because he has the hearts stopped. When in your multi-succesful-tight-fitting sequence did you say you are not interested in game in no trumps? How does opener know you are looking for a slam and not for a simple 3nt game if all suits are stopped? He won't cuebid 4c, he will bid 3NT and you will end up in 6d because you won't risk bidding 7d without knowing if the 2nd keycard is the cA or the dK.

I'll be collecting this hands, I'm sure you will produce the same sequence to two different contracts some day :-) Anyway I want to say that I'm having a lot of fun with this thread, it's both instructive and fun....

Now a challenge for you Ben: swap diammonds and clubs in both hands and show me your "natural" sequence to 7 clubs.

[inquiry]

Quote

Quote

A natural auction, would go

1D 2S
2NT 3D
3H 3S
4H 4NT
5H 7D

I challenge you to sit down your best 10 natural bidding pairs and see if they can reproduce this sequence. I'm really having a lot of fun reading "forced" creations to reach 7d. You setup spades as trumps, then bid diammonds and pretend to play in that suit. Furthermore note how opener bids 3h and 4h with AKx never never considering bidding 3nt with Q863 of clubs, then you """know""" he can't have the club ace...
So you do bid 3nt with Axxx but not with Qxxx or after 1m-2M you never play 3NT because you have to cuebid all your honors and you always pass the 3nt level.....

Luis.... Luis.....Luis..... (I can repeat names too )... Eric's auction would be reproduced by anyone playing Solway Jump Shifts!!!! which show either a ONE SUITED HAND THAT can play opposite a singleton OR A TWO SUITED HAND with terrific trump support for his partner. There is no reason to suggest that "others" can't do it or that after the jumpshift the hand has to be played in spades.

The question as proposed was HOW WOULD YOU BID THIS HAND. ERIC doesn't have to defend how a million or how even 10 other people would bid it. His auction is simple, easy to follow, elegant, and would be easily replicated by anyone using Solway jumpshifts. I have used these myself, but gave them up for fit jumps (I never liked preemptive jump shifts in a non-competitive auction). I find your challenging of his auction in the tone you did, well, off-putting to Eric who gave a very easy auction to the grandslam. Eric's solution is perfectly reasonable, and that you can't see this is well..... you know, I will not repeat yesterday's assessment. Likewise for my auctions... few play kantar roman keycard blackwood, but that doesn't stop me from using them in my system. And "natural" bidding often doesn't include two way checkback, but so what? This is how I bid. And you may be surprized to learn people who never have heard of mosquito bid grand slams every day.

Now as to your question about reversing the suits in a second message to me. Well, you have one point you didn't even release because you posed the question to me and nto Eric. Reversing the suits will take away the Solway jumpshift from Eric, as you can not use that with a two suiter unless one of the suit is partners. But for me, my initial bids are relatively unchanged, again, depending upon rather the game is matchpoints or imps. At mp, I bid my major first, at imps, my minor.

North
S AKQ64
H Q4
D VOID
C AJ9854

South
S 72
H AK5
D Q863
C KT76

MP where I introduce spades first....
1D - 1S
1N - 2D (2D still game force check back)
2N - 3C (2N still no 3S or 4 H)
3H - 3S (3H = still cooperating, implied fit 3S=cue)
3N - 4D (3N = still ran out of cues, 4D = rkc with C trumps)
4N - 5D (4N = two without Q, 5D = Specific king ask)
5H - 5N (5H = king hearts, 5NT = reverse josephine)
7C - Pass

2D is 100% game force.
2N = no majors
3C = second suit
3H = same as before, starting to cooperate
3S = cue bid
3N = same as before, no Ace in other minor
4D = with clubs agreed trumps, 4D is RKC (4H over diamonds)
4N = 2 key cards, no trump queen
5D = kantar's specific king asking bid
5H = 5 hearts = king of hearts
5N = Extra trump? Can't be asking for Queen, already denied
7C = partner can't expect me to have 5 clubs on this auction, so he must be looking for a fourth trump.

The above auction is not as easy, of course, as when partner open's 1D because you have to find out about the fourth trump which is critical. But 5S ask for extra kings, 5NT is a trump asking bid.... And Luis before you suggest that 5NT can be passed, 5D is a GRAND SLAM try, 5NT can not be passed. I will bid this grand slam by this auction, without a lot of worry.

Paradoxically, my auction becomes tortured when we agree clubs early, and I admit I have a reasonable chance to miss the grand slam at the table. The reason being the oddity that my void is in diamonds muck up the auction, any other void, and it becomes so much easier (see below)....

1D-2C
3C-3S (3Clubs requires 4 card support, 3S=game force)
3N-4C (3N = minimum, red suits stopped, 4C=slam try)
4H-4S (4H=cue bid, 4S= cue bid)
5C-5D (4N=by responder would be D cue-bid, see below)
5H-5S (5H = another heart cue bid, 5S=cue bid)
7C <----- Ok, see below, this is the tricky bid.

After 1D-2C-3C, sadly 4D is not voidwood (any other void, and voidwood is available, but 4D would be normal RKB the way I play). Likewise over the 4C slam try, 4D by opener would also be RKC...so even with Diamond ACE, he couldn't cue-bid 4D directly, opener would have to use 4NT to cue-bid a diamond control....Instead, of course, opener cue-bid his heart control (neutral on Diamond control). Over 4S, I use 4NT as the extended cue-bid for the missing suit, here diamonds that could not have been cue-bid earlier (and if the trumps were diamonds, 4NT would be showing heart contol). So opener without a diamond control, must rebid 5C's.

Opener now cue-bids 5D as clearly establishing slam force and a grand slam try showing first round diamond control since opener has denied any diamond control. 5H shows AK of hearts.

After this 5H cue-bid, responder can not guess to bid the grand slam.. he doesn't have enough information. Here is what he knows about opener's hand. Opener has at 4-4 or 5-4 in the minors (either way, by the way, as with 1-3-4-5 I open 1D) with AK of hearts (the 3NT rebid can be on 2-2-4-5, 2-2-5-4, 2-3-4-4, 1-3-5(4).). Opener lacks A or K of diamonds, and has at most Spade J, and Heart AKJ. So one can construct a hand where he would have an opening bid without the CLUB KING, something like....

Jx
AKJ
QJxx
Qxxx

So responder simply can't blast to 7Clubs, heck partner might not even have the club queen...

Nor can responder bid 5NT immediately over 5H as Josephine or Baron of GSF, as all you need is Kxxx of clubs, Anything looking for two club honors or the trump queen would miss grand slam with the hand actually held (four trumps the king).

So here it takes a remarkable amount of partnership trust, to cue-bid 5S. Not that partner will pass you in 5S, of course he will not, this is another grand slam try. The trust is that partner will be able to make an intellegent bid over 5 Spades that you can interpret.

The only question after hearts cuebid twice, spades cue-bid twice, diamond control denied by one partner and promised by the other (5C and 5D), is the quality of the trump suit.

What message about trumps does 5S send here? First, that responder is still exploring SEVEN, and second, he DIDN'T use 5NT to seek seven if in possession of two of the top three honors.

So what is your partner aiming for? I think the implication is clear. With AK, AQ, or KQ of clubs as opener, of course you would bid 7C over 5S anyway, that much is easy. But what about with club suits like the following? ....

a) xxxx
Qxxx
c) Kxxx
d) Axxx

I believe the way the auction has developmed 5S is looking for a grand opposite hands c or d, or maybe looking for grand opposite hand b. So with c or d, I would also bid 7 clubs. With hand b, I would bid 5NT, and with hand a I would bid 6 clubs.

Now, I have to be the first to admit, that this use of second five level cue-bid has never come up in any auction I have ever bid. Mainly because I use blackwood long before this in most auctions. The diamond void combined with the early club raise removed the blackwood option out of my bag of tricks, as 4D is no longer voidwood, but normal blackwood. Making this an extremely tricky hand to bid. So looking at this hand has allowed me to work through the possible meaning of different bids in a tortured auction like thisBut to draw the right conclusion at the table on this auction would require a lot of thought, and time. I doubt without having practiced this hand, I would have been able to solve a hand like this at the table, and for that I am grateful... thanks Luis. I have added this hand to my list of study hands to bid with my partners. I will give them the one with all the clubs... now if they will just not read this thread.

Ben

[luis]

Quote

5N = Extra trump? Can't be asking for Queen, already denied
7C = partner can't expect me to have 5 clubs on this auction, so he must be looking for a fourth trump.

Hope you don't mind if I call you a natural-maniac, you called me mentally-blocked yesterday :-) And we both know we are calling us names just to be funny, no offenses.

I love this things. Note how natural-maniacs "invent" conventions at the table to solve unsolvable problems, so far we've seen in this thread the most incredible treatments for a 5NT bid:

Quote

"5NT = asking pd to bid 7 with 2 honors"
"7d = I have only one but 4 cards"

Amazing.

And now

Quote

"5N = Extra trump? Can't be asking for Queen, already denied"
"7C = partner can't expect me to have 5 clubs on this auction, so he must be looking for a fourth trump."

Ah..... I'm delighted.... Why doesn't 5NT ask for the SPADE KING? Why can't you have AQJxxx of spades and need the sK to win 7c ?
If 5h denied the sK or one on your multiple cuebids did (which ones?) then why is 5NT not asking for excedents or queens ?

I just can't believe you pretend to be serious about 5NT asking about 4 clubs :-)


Next time opener will have
Jx, Axx, Kxxx, KQxx

and then
Over an asking bid for specific kings he can bid the club king, and then over 5nt (insufficient but we have to do something) he can bid 7d because he has the spade Jack.

5NT: So you don't have the hK do you have something to make 7?
7d: "Yes! I have the spade jack!"

Amazing! But we should check if your "natural" methods are legal, I don't know if you can have different meanings for the same bids based on what you know or don't know your pd holds, isn't that an encrypted method?

My last 5NT proposal is:

5NT: "Please bid the right thing"
7d: "Aye sir"


Cheers.

[inquiry]

[quote author=luis link=board=6;threadid=627;start=25#msg3713 date=1056466365]
[quote]
5N = Extra trump? Can't be asking for Queen, already denied
7C = partner can't expect me to have 5 clubs on this auction, so he must be looking for a fourth trump.
[/quote]

Ok Luis, I do take minot offense at being called a natural-maniac, but only because I play Precision with my real world partner, Ultimate club with mike, power precision with one online partner... and in college, I was a big ROMEX fan. So just call me a weirdo maniac, or a makeup a bid maniac... I can live with that. I even provide ultimate club auctions for this an another hand here in the last two days. I don't want to be tied to just one system.

And for the record, once again, I didn't call you mentally blocked... I said you WERE mentally blocked on one hand... There is a difference can't you see that? What are you mentally blocked or something....? lol....

[quote author=luis link=board=6;threadid=627;start=25#msg3713 date=1056466365]
[quote]I love this things. Note how natural-maniacs "invent" conventions at the table to solve unsolvable problems, so far we've seen in this thread the most incredible treatments for a 5NT bid:

"5NT = asking pd to bid 7 with 2 honors"
"7d = I have only one but 4 cards"
[/quote]

This isn't amazing, I have used this bid many many times. I even play a convention I talked about here I believe called REVERSE JOSEPHINE asking for grand slam missing the queen... but that is a totally different issue. What do you think 5NT can mean after 1) key cards have been show, 2) trump queen has been denied, 3) in a grand slam invite auction...

I find it amazing you find it amazing.

[quote author=luis link=board=6;threadid=627;start=25#msg3713 date=1056466365]
[quote]
"5N = Extra trump? Can't be asking for Queen, already denied"
"7C = partner can't expect me to have 5 clubs on this auction, so he must be looking for a fourth trump."

Ah..... I'm delighted.... Why doesn't 5NT ask for the SPADE KING? Why can't you have AQJxxx of spades and need the sK to win 7c ? [/quote]

[u]Since you were so kind to ask[/u], I will tell you why 5NT doens't ask for the spade king. The reason is because that is what 5S does over 5H. If you want to read about specific king asking bid (which 5D started, after first king ask, and king show, if there is any more kings possible, the relay ask for them. Since I didn't bid 5S, I wasn't interested in the spade king. If I was, I would have bid 5S and still found it with the hand you drew up...

[quote author=luis link=board=6;threadid=627;start=25#msg3713 date=1056466365]
[quote]If 5h denied the sK or one on your multiple cuebids did (which ones?) then why is 5NT not asking for excedents or queens ?[/quote]..

Well as I have shown you, 5H did not deny the spade king so we can skip right on pass this comment.

[quote author=luis link=board=6;threadid=627;start=25#msg3713 date=1056466365]
[quote]I just can't believe you pretend to be serious about 5NT asking about 4 clubs :-) [/quote]

Maybe you need to study modern natural bidding a little more. It really isn't as bad as you seem to think. This 5NT can have NO OTHER MEANING here after blackwood, queen denial.

I will tell you why 5NT doesn't ask for the spade king. The reason

You don't have to tell, me, I know why it doesn't ask for the spade king... because 5S does.

[quote author=luis link=board=6;threadid=627;start=25#msg3713 date=1056466365]
[quote]Next time opener will have
Jx, Axx, Kxxx, KQxx

and then
Over an asking bid for specific kings he can bid the club king, and then over 5nt (insufficient but we have to do something) he can bid 7d because he has the spade Jack. [/quote]

You have not only changed the hand, but changed the auction... the discussion now has gone to when clubs are trumps.... so over 5D specific king ask, the response is 5N (denying heart king, spade king, showing diamond king).... if diamonds where trumps, the response would be 6C denying major kings, showing minor kings. But I am lost as to how we got to specific king ask here... it would be nice to know which hand you are talking about... for responder... one with original minors or reversed minors.

[quote author=luis link=board=6;threadid=627;start=25#msg3713 date=1056466365]
[quote]
5NT: So you don't have the hK do you have something to make 7?
7d: "Yes! I have the spade jack!"
[/quote]

Now you have a habit of inserting quotes for people that they didn't make. This could easily offend someone and make them ANGRY. You QUOTE me (place in quotes) text I never said. I think this is not a good idea luis. We will see how you like it when the shoe is on the other foot (see below)....

[quote author=luis link=board=6;threadid=627;start=25#msg3713 date=1056466365]
[quote]"Amazing! But we should check if your "natural" methods are legal, I don't know if you can have different meanings for the same bids based on what you know or don't know your pd holds, isn't that an encrypted method? [/quote]

Hmmm... let's see.. partner DENIED trump QUEEN, partner PROMISED two control, I bid 5NT as a grand slam try... encrypted? What do you play that as? Bid 7 with two of the top three? An impossible holding. Bid 7 with the trump queen even though you denied it? What utter nonsense. You play it as bid 7 with five card suit even though you opened 1D? Silly again. You know what this is called? Bridge. On this auction opener can not have FIVE clubs for another reason. With five clubs he would have ALREADY shown the club queen even when he didn't hold it. So, no with minors reversed, and this auction, this 5NT is looking for seven with four card support, plain and simple.

I have not once attacked your bidding, nor far as I can see, anyone else. Nor have I refused to answer your critism of my or others bidding. Yet for reasons known only to you, you continue to try to prove every bidding method inferior to mosquito... so ok, lets go after your auction for the hand in question, shall we? Who know, it might be fun.... we shall do what you do, and change the hand too, of course....

1)
S J2
H J52
D QT76
C AKQJ

or

2)
J2
K52
KQ76
KQJ3

or

3)
Jx
Axx
Kxxx
KQJX

or
4)
Jx
AKx
xxxx
KQJx

German-Moscito auction:
South North
1d(1) 1h(2)
1n(3) 2c(2)
2d(4) 2h(2)
2n(5) 4c(6)
4d(7) oh... boo hoo hoo... what do (hand 1 or 2)
4h(8) <<--- instead of 4D with hand 3 or 4

does partner have hand 1, 2, 3, or 4... opposite 3, grand slam still almost cold... 6D, 4S, 1H and two heart ruffs....

Opposite hand 1, even 5 Diamonds can be too high, losing two hearts and a diamond. And hand 2, well, we can make six diamonds, wonder how I will know....do I pass, bid 5D, wing 6D and hope partner doesn't have hand 1. oh my gosh, wish I was playing standard.....

I am of course, assuming that 4D shows 0-2 control outside of clubs... since 4S showed 4, thus 4H probably shows 3, so, 4d = 0-2

Now, let me be the first to admit, I don't know what tools might exist in your system after 4C exlcusion suit control ask and a 4D response. Which is why I tended to accept your "auction" at face value, and explain how I bid.... But since you enjoy the what if game so much... here you go with hand 1) you are clearly headed to 5D that is 50-50 with 10 fairly sure tricks in notrump (4S, 4C, 1H and 1D), and maybe more, as spades might run. But if you sign-off in 5D, maybe partner has hand 3 or 4.

With hand 3, if you leap to grand slam because your partner has 3 controls outside of diamonds, you might catch him with hand 4... gosh darn it....that would be embarrishing... off KQ of trumps...

[b]Luis says [color][b][quote]
[color=yellow]Well, I would use grandslam force... oh wait, I haven't said what my suit is, so 5NT will not help me? What to do, what to do... Mosquito is soooo stupid.. why did I ever think it made any sense?

What if I bid 5H as an asking bid...wait... maybe I have long hearts instead of diamonds and I am finally setting the contract knowing we can not make slam...

ARGHHHHH, Darn it, why did I ever start playing mosquito, here we are the four level, I haven't told partner what our suit is yet, and well, I don't know what I need to know. Ben was SOOOO right, natural is so much better." [/quote]

Luis, seriously, don't you think it is best on these hands to simply state how YOU would bid it. And to not quote others incorrectly (as I did you just above this paragraph?) Why not just let others state how they would bid it, and then allow people to judge for themselves which way works best for them? If YOU have a serious question, like why 5NT in my auction DIDN'T ask for the spade king, then by all means, you should be able to ask it. And, like I did above, people should explain why, heck I might even provide a link for you so you can check this stuff out for yourself

Now I have invented new hands for YOU to figure out bidding on, I have quoted you as being frutstrated with no way to bid them, and I have tossed down a challenge for you to bid not one, but four hands.... just as you have done to lenze, lifemonster and me. And I assure you, as soon as you post your "solutions" any one of can, without any knowledge of mosquito, groudnless ridcule your new bids, change a card or two in either hand and challenge you to bid them again. And to make sure we get you to respond, we can quote you as being frustrated with your bidding or find other ways to make the challenge personal....(I personally like Ben...ben...ben....).

I undertook this long, point-by-point post in an effort to show you what you have been doing not only to my post, but to lifemonster (who gave a very simple and elegant solution), and lenze who gave a very reasonable one as well. Some people will not be willing to post if when they do they think someone, say you, will groundlessly attack their auction. Not me of course, I am always ready for a debate, but I think we would all benefit from an open sharing of ideas without the attack becoming personal and with the maximum amount of participation. I am worried that your attack dog attitude on all things not mosquito or relay may inhibit some from responding. And besides, you didn't understand lifemonsters Solway jumpshift and you made yourself look foolish in your comments about it.

Ben [/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

[pbleighton]

Now, now boys.....

[luis]

Sorry If I misshandled the "quote" function I'm not very familiar with the syntax :-) Never wanted to put words in your mouth Ben :-)

I'm rolling on the floor laughing, this has been extremely fun.

[luis]

Quote

Well, I would use grandslam force... oh wait, I haven't said what my suit is, so 5NT will not help me? What to do, what to do... Mosquito is soooo stupid.. why did I ever think it made any sense?

You seem to have misunderstood my points, I'm not saying Moscito is perfect I never said that, I believe that is superior for slam bidding than natural methods. There're a zillion hands where it can fail, they are not hard to construct and I won't try to "invent" a solution. What I've been tryng to say and you refuse to accept it is that a natural system is worst than a relay system (not only moscito) if you have to find a difficult slam or grand slam.

Do you see the point? I can post "n" hands and you will always provide us an incredible "natural" auction to the best contract, that's what makes me laugh, it is impossible! Instead of "inventing" the right convention each time you should just accept that the hand is difficult to bid and would normally end up in 6x. On the other hand you can post as many hands as you want and if moscito fails I will just admit it fails. It's really easy to construct hands where moscito has problems, after knowing pd distribution and number of controls we use denial cuebids or exclusion blackwood, we don't have other tools. I

Since you presented the hands as a challenge let's see them:
Responder always has: AKQxx, Qx, AJxxxx, -

1)
S J2
H J52
D QT76
C AKQJ

1d 1h ®
2s (c=d) 2n ®
3c (2-3-4-4 and 13-14) 4c (controls excluding clubs)
4d (2 or less) 4h (asking)
4s (no dK or A) 5d

5d is not as good as 4s or 4nt but well it is the price we pay for
trying to find the slam if he has the dK.

J2
K52
KQ76
KQJ3

Aha 15+ this is an 1c opening :-)

1c 1h (spades)
1s 2c (diammonds)
2d 2h (d>s)
2s 2n (short clubs)
3c 3n (6-2-5-0)
4c 4n (5 controls)
5c 5d (AK of spades)
6d

3)
Jx
Axx
Kxxx
KQJX

1d 1h ®
2s (c=d) 2n ®
3c (2-3-4-4 and 13-14) 4c (controls excluding clubs)
4h (3 controls) 6d (what's the problem?)


4)
Jx
AKx
xxxx
KQJx

1d 1h ®
2s (c=d) 2n ®
3c (2-3-4-4 and 13-14) 4c (controls excluding clubs)
4h (3 controls) 6d (what's the problem?)


These particular 4 examples were easy, as well as the original hand. But there're hands where the system is not enough to determine the best contract and you have to judge what to play, I admit it.

But even then it's better than natural bidding for slams and Oh sorprise! after learning your amazing conventions I can conclude that it is easier to learn and remember. Just describe your shape, your controls and where they are, then pd bids the best contract he can find. I'm sure it is easier than Kantar RKCB, Inverse Josephine, Criss Cross, Batman & robin , and your zillion gadgets.

[inquiry]

I am glad you took the time to answer the bidding quiz. I see no need to extend the arguement by changing all the hands, changing locations of honors or suits to see how the mosquito auctions will go, or commenting individually on your hands. I just hope I made my point..

But for the gentle reader....and in response to one of your specific question, I will make two general comments.

First, dear reader after 4C (exclusion control ask), 4D (how ever many controls)... the responder who might hold bunches of hearts instead of spades and diamonds, can not bid 4H's naturally to play if too few controls are held, for you see that is another asking bid....Now why 4H's asked in Diamonds as opposed to hearts, or spades, is well, too much for me to ask or care.

And since you asked Luis, what is the problem with auction 3? You just missed 7Diamonds... 6D, 4S, 1H, and 2H ruffs or 1H ruff and 1S ruff. What happened to the vaunted Mosquito? I think natural bidders finding 4D to the king, the heart ACE, might at least have a shot at finding that one.

But here is the real problem I have with your post Luis from yesteray and today in one two line quote in yellow (below)...

Never once did I in my auction where I bid 5NT did I state that it asked for partner to bid 7 with two of the top three...as a matter of fact, I specifically gave a different meaning to the bid which make 100% bidding logic. Despite this you quoted me as...

Quote:
"5NT = asking pd to bid 7 with 2 honors"
"7d = I have only one but 4 cards"

and then followed this up by ridiculed this auction as being "amazing" (implied stupid)... well if 5NT meant bid 7 with 2 honors as you said I said it meant, it would be.... but of course, you knew that in the auction given, that this wasn't the case. So you not only incorrectly quoted me, you then "made fun" of the meaning you invented and applied to my auction. You went so far at to type in silly statements after the bids not only in BBF quote format, but with quote signs as well....

Now, you can use 5NT to ask for grand slam if partner has two of the top three honors when he has denied the trump queen and shown two controls including the ace in another suit all YOU want, but that is an "AMAZINGLY" STUPID use for the bid... Why, because partner can not have the ACE he already promised in a side suit, the lack of a trump queen he has already stated AND STILL hold two top honors in trumps.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this. Anyone who uses 5NT to be "bid a grand slam with two of the top three honors in trumps" in this situation doesn't understand bidding logic. Why, because PARTNER CAN NOT HAVE THAT HAND. It would be better to use it as your bid grand slam with the spade jack (you were being sarcastic of course with that remark) than to ask for grand with both top honors. But here, the natural meaning is best... bid grand with extra trump legnth.

It you stop and think about it, can't you see that ASKING for grand with two of the top three honors on this auction is AN IMPOSSIBLE meaning for the bid? I am sure others reading this thread will see why such a use for 5NT is nonsense. Even those who before being show the light in this thread for the first time who always thought 5NT only asked for grand with two of the top three honors...for yes, there is other uses for the bid if logically the normal conventional meaning can not apply.

Now if partner can logically still have two trumps, like in the second auction WHERE I DID NOT use 5NT, it would in fact have had its normal conventional meaning. Which, you may remember, is why I DID NOT BID 5NT with that hand. Nor did I "invent" a new meaning for 5NT in that situation, since clearly in that situation, 5NT carries its normal meaning. But I did invent a funky 5S re-cue bid. That one would have been open for fair discussion, because I 1) admitted I just made that one up, 2) said this auction had never occurred before. Funny, I thought that would be the one you would take a shot at... not the bid I have used 100 times in competition.

Ben

Ben

[luis]

Quote

Never once did I in my auction where I bid 5NT did I state that it asked for partner to bid 7 with two of the top three...as a matter of fact, I specifically gave a different meaning to the bid which make 100% bidding logic. Despite this you quoted me as...

Quote:
"5NT = asking pd to bid 7 with 2 honors"
"7d = I have only one but 4 cards"

and then followed this up by ridiculed this auction as being "amazing" (implied stupid)... well if 5NT meant bid 7 with 2 honors as you said I said it meant, it would be.... but of course, you knew that in the auction given, that this wasn't the case. So you not only incorrectly quoted me, you then "made fun" of the meaning you invented and applied to my auction. You went so far at to type in silly statements after the bids not only in BBF quote format, but with quote signs as well....

Ben.... I didn't quote you it was another guy who posted that treatment of 5NT I was amazed not by your bids but by the different meanings of 5NT for the same hand....
Your bids were always consistent. Don't worry.

And now I've said at least 4 times I'm doing this with humour, I must ask you if you are getting mad. Are you? I never meant to offend you :-)

I'll also answer why 4h asks in diammonds because when denial cuebids are used the suits are scanned in length order, if two suits have the same length they are scanned in rank order.
You can't play 4h that's true but you are not asking for controls excluding clubs in a hand where the contract is to be played in hearts and can be in jeopardy at the 5 level, are you?

All systems have pros and cons, I'll admit forever that Moscito has some problems in many hands and that it's inferior than natural in competitive auctions. But it is better for slams and grand slams, no matter how many gadgets and gizmos you introduce, I think that you have reached a level of artificiallity so high that your "natural" auctions are no longer natural. After all you used Kantar RKCB, Criss cross, double checkback, Inverse Josephine and Batman & Robin in the same hand.... :-)

[inquiry]

Lenze

"North – 5 NT – Do you have 2 of the top three honors?
South – 7 Diamonds - No, but I have the King with extra diamond length for my bids"

Oh, my goodness... Never mind.... :-[

[hrothgar]

From my perspective, this entire discussion does a wonderful job illustrating why I prefer relay methods to so-called natural systems.

Simply put, relay methods are so very much easier to learn and apply.

As Luis has already pointed out, relay systems are designed to apply simple and efficient auction termination mechanisms once shape has been defined. These structures

(a) Use specific and well defined rules
( Do not require memorizing 1001 special cases and exceptions
© Leverage known information from earlier in the auction

In answer to some of Ben's earlier comments:

>First, dear reader after 4C (exclusion control ask), 4D (how ever many controls)... the >responder who might hold bunches of hearts instead of spades and diamonds, can not bid >4H's naturally to play if too few controls are held, for you see that is another asking bid....

Relay systems provide enormous flexibility in setting trump contracts.
The "short" answer is that if you want/need to play in 4H, then you need to select a different branch to ask for controls.

>Now why 4H's asked in Diamonds as opposed to hearts, or spades, is well, too much for me
>to ask or care.

Fairly simple, really. Relay Responder's Diamonds are longer than his Hearts or Spades. Denial Cue Bids and Asking bids are structured to focus on responder's long suits since this optimizes the exchange of information.

Here once again:

Simple rules, applied consistantly, designed to optimize the flow of information are MUCH easier than expecting partner to guess that 5NT is inverted swiss Josephine.

[luis]

Quote

Oh, my goodness... Never mind....

Ben,

I've been having so much fun with this thread that I've been unfair with you, both your 5s bid and your 5nt bids are really good bids playing standard that should be discussed with your partnership. Your ideas are a very useful source of discussion for most players and my posts were just pushing you to explain further and further and find even better bids, well done!

In fact, I'm going to ask my 2/1 pd about this hand and how do we approach the bidding to sync the system and I'm going to use your ideas I don't like Kantar RKCb but the meaning of your inverse Josephine 5NT is something that must be discussed in seriour parnerships as well as the "funny" 5s ultra-cuebid-please-getme-to-7d.

You should keep posting such interesting ideas and you will get used to my particular humour, I'm a good guy I just like "fighting" the holly war between naturalists and scientists because it is fun and it makes both worlds of bidding improve to compete with each other. I do play 2/1 as well as Moscito and I've learned interesting treatments to discuss in this thread.

[lenze]

Hi All: This has been an interesting thread. My thoughts are!!
There is NO reason NOT to open the south hand 1C. After that, my sequence

South –1 Club – Why open 1 Diamond when you plan to re-bid 1NT over 1 Spade?
North – 2 Diamonds – I have a good hand with a diamond suit
South – 3 Diamonds – I can live with diamonds
North – 3 Spades – I have something in spades
South – 3NT – I really have hearts stopped
North – 4 Diamonds – Really interested in Diamond slam
South – I have the Ace of Hearts
North – 4 Spades – I have the Ace of Spades
South – 5 Hearts – I have the King of Hearts
North – 5 NT – Do you have 2 of the top three honors?
South – 7 Diamonds - No, but I have the King with extra diamond length for my bids

is reasonable and playable. North can not bid so agressive on a Q high suit. (see my previuos post).

I must admit, however, at the table I would probably NOT pick up on this inference and as south, would only bid 6 diamonds.

[inquiry]

Quote

Hi All: This has been an interesting thread. My thoughts are!!
There is NO reason NOT to open the south hand 1C. After that, my sequence

Let me give you ONE very good reason not to open this hand 1CLUB.....

You LHO Partner RHO
1C 1S/2S DBL Pass
?

Do you really feel up to bid 2D or 3D on this auction? How about 3H on a three card suit? No, if the opponents stay out of the auction, opening 1C is okish... but still even on your auction, you run afowl of how many trumps might you have opener? If you open 1D, you will pretty much be assured of 4.

Now then what about your auction after you DO open 1C?...I don't very much like a jumpshift with two suits that don't include partners...you may have just lost the spade suit. So much so in fact, at mp, I start both of my auctions with 1S (after all, slam maynot be in the hand). But ok, we all bid differently. So over your jumpshift I very much like the 3D raise, make it clear this is going to be a trumps (if not not trump).

The problem here, seems to be, that you have used up too much room. 3S is correctly treated as initially a stab at 3NT, so 3NT is more or less automatic, to play.

Now 4D clarifies the slam try. Here I suggest you might want to refine your cue-bidding to use NT as a cue-bid in trumps. Some play a bypass of NT in such a cue-bidding auction as showing or denying both top trump honors (got this out of BridgeWorld circa early 1980's, and play this on line with papathegreek). So one auction might go....

1C - 2D
3D - 3S
3N - 4D
4H - 4S (up to 4N same as yours)
4N - 5C (4N = trump A or K, but not both)
5H - ? (5H = heart king)

At this point, I think responder has two options open to him, neither of which is your suggested 5NT. One is to bid 6C as Baron Grand Slam try. With Kxxx this is better than promised and the grand slam would be bid. This is so clear, I would bid it in a flash on the above auction.

If you either don't play Baron, or you think your partner might think that now, after agreeing diamonds and cuebidding in support, you have changed your mind and want to play clubs (yuck, but I have seen a lot worse), you might try the 5S cue bid.

However, this is auction is quite different from the one where I bid 5S earlier to find a 7 Club contract (earlier in this thread with minors reversed). The reason being there is still room to show the club king (after all, 5S maybe a waiting bid to see if partner has the club king).

So over 5S, with the hand with four trumps to the king, and no club king, one has to bid either 5NT or 6D. I think with four to the King in diamonds, I would temporize with 5NT. Now partner can bid 6C, still trying for the grand, the implication of this 6C bid is very clear. Need good trumps, two top honors not necessary, or he would have used 5NT GSF. So how much better after opening 1C can you have in diamonds but Kxxx ? ? ?

What if you did have the king of clubs, so over 5S you bid 6C? Now partner "signs off" with 6D. Did he invite you to bid 6C just so he could signoff? No, the implication for after this bid is just as clear, and with Kxxx of diamonds, to go along with all your other stuff you have shown (H-AK, Club-K), you simply MUST bid 7 Diamonds again... Of course it will take you ten minutes to figure out what to bid over 5S, over 6C, and or over 6D so you will be in front of a committee fairly quickly.... "his partner signed off in 6 diamonds and then he just up and bid 7Diamonds on his own... we wuz robbed."

Ben

[lenze]

Hi Ben: You wrote

Let me give you ONE very good reason not to open this hand 1CLUB.....

You LHO Partner RHO
1C 1S/2S DBL Pass
?

Actually, I would have NO problem bidding 2 or 3 Diamonds/Hearts on your suggested sequence with the example hand. ANYTIME my initial intention is to rebid in NT, I will always open 1 Club holding
4-4 in the minors (Kantor101)

[inquiry]

Quote

I will always open 1 Club holding
4-4 in the minors (Kantor101)

Hi, you should go participate in the 1c - or 1d thread in the SAYC/2over1 forum. If I remember correctly, flytoox also always opens 1C with 4-4 in the minors but he wasn't getting much support. Your view would support his position.

http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...ay;threadid=595

I hope you noticed that I accepted your 1C bid at face value for the remainder of my discussion in the response you quoted. The reason being, opening 1C or 1D should not be a huge issue on this hand. That is just a matter of style.

ben