[lenze]

Playing IMP's (Swiss Teams), How would you and your partner bid these cards (no interference)?

South Deals:

North
S AKQ64
H Q4
D AJ9854
C VOID


South
S 72
H AK5
D KT76
C Q863

[pbleighton]

Not playing Voidwood, Kickback, etc.:

1D
2D Inverted Minors (holy cow!)
3D Min, but with 4 diamonds
3S Cue
4H Cue

5C will probably push auction past 5D, so
6D No guts, no glory

Interesting to see how this will be bid with better methods.

[luis]

Quote

North
S AKQ64
H Q4
D AJ9854
C VOID


South
S 72
H AK5
D KT76
C Q863

German-Moscito auction:
South North
1d(1) 1h(2)
1n(3) 2c(2)
2d(4) 2h(2)
2n(5) 4c(6)
4s(7) 7d (8)

(1) 10-14 no 4M
(2) Relay
(3) Minimum balanced (10-12)
(4) 44 in the minors
(5) Exactly 2-3-4-4
(6) Controls without counting the club suit?
(7) 4
(8) Thank you very much

The Chamaleon auction
1n (1) 2c (2)
2d(3) 2s(2)
3h(4) 3s(5)
4d(6) 4h(7)
4n(8) ?

(1) 11-14 balancd
(2) Relay
(3) No 4M
(4) 2-3-4-4
(5) Controls?
(6) 4
(7) Where?
(8) One in diammonds, 0-2 in clubs

And now we have a BIG problem, no way to know if opener has AK of clubs or AK of hearts. So we have to guess in this system what to do between 5d or 7d. :-). Poor Chameleon

A weak-nt auction

1n(1) 2h(2)
2s 3d
3h(3) 5c(4)
5s(5) 6d

(1) 12-14
(2) Xfer
(3) D support and h control
(4) Exclusion RKCB
(5) 2 Key cards excluding clubs


Another weak-nt auction

1nt 2n(1)
3c(2) 3s
3n 4c
4h 4s
4n 6c(3)
6d

(1) xfer to diammonds
(2) I like diammonds
(3) 2 with a club void


A strong NT auction with inv min assuming 1d 4+ diammonds
1d 2d (1)
2h 2s
2n 3s
3n 4d
4h 4n
5h 7d

Interesting to see how some relay systems may have a problem here. Natural methods have a lot of problems here and only a Inverted-Minors sequence can lead to success finding pd with 4d and hA + hA. Note that if 1d opening does not promise 4 cards you have problems knowing the missing dQ (!!!)

[lifemonster]

Easy in my 2/1 sys, with most popular gadgets.

South North
1D 1S
1NT 2C
2D 3D
3H 3S
3NT 4C
4H ??

1D:guarantee 4-cd suit; we'd open 1C with 4432
2C:nmf
2D:no major
3D:buidling a forcing fit
3H, 3S:first cue
3NT:I have minimum
4C:first cue
4H:second cue
I'm kind of stuck here now because North only concern is whether South's diamonds headed with Qxxx or Kxxx.GSF can't tell. So North probably would have to carry on cuebidding.

Alternatively, a better option is, North can launch 5C right after 3H, exclusion RKC; after learning 2 keycards, create a 7-try bid(must be asking the K of hearts). South accepts because of the useful K.

[lifemonster]

Can North be creative? What about responding 1H over 1D opening? (since North desparately wants to know South's holding in red suits) That way, later North can afford to RKC in hearts, hence, checking keycards and useful minor K's on the way.

Hehe, just a thought.

[luis]

Quote

Easy in my 2/1 sys, with most popular gadgets.

South North
1D 1S
1NT 2C
2D 3D
3H 3S
3NT 4C
4H ??

1D:guarantee 4-cd suit; we'd open 1C with 4432
2C:nmf
2D:no major
3D:buidling a forcing fit
3H, 3S:first cue
3NT:I have minimum
4C:first cue
4H:second cue
I'm kind of stuck here now because North only concern is whether South's diamonds headed with Qxxx or Kxxx.GSF can't tell. So North probably would have to carry on cuebidding.

Alternatively, a better option is, North can launch 5C right after 3H, exclusion RKC; after learning 2 keycards, create a 7-try bid(must be asking the K of hearts). South accepts because of the useful K.

May I recommend you a simple convention for your bag?
Use 5NT Josephine with step responses. When a fit is stablished
a direct 5NT bid without a previous 4NT asks to bid 7 with 3 honors or step-responses:
6c = 0 honors in trump suit
6d = 1 honor in trump suit
6h = 2 honors in trump suit
7x = 3 honors
In this case after 5NT-6d you can bid 7. Note that this is only because you know that pd has 4 diammonds. If we reverse clubs and diammonds on both hands I think we have a serious problem. Do we?

[lifemonster]

Hi luis:
the problem is, with Qxxx and Kxxx in diamonds, South's answer to GSF is the same. He has one honor, so how can you tell if it's the Q or the K?

That's why I don't think 5NT by North will do the job here. I certainly won't mind 5NT by South because North would reply two honors.

Kind Regards

Sam

[luis]

Oooops you are right I forgot we need to determine if he has the Q or the K. As Ben says I'm mentally blocked today hehe. And I don't think opener can bid 5nt because he doesn't know about the solid spades, club void, etc.

I don't think we can have a solution for this hand using standard methods unless 1d shows 4+ cards and north can use exclusion blackwood. If so then a simple 1d-5c bid does all the job :-)

[lenze]

I appreciate the input, but it seems a natural system works quite well.

South –1 Club – Why open 1 Diamond when you plan to re-bid 1NT over 1 Spade?
North – 2 Diamonds – I have a good hand with a diamond suit
South – 3 Diamonds – I can live with diamonds
North – 3 Spades – I have something in spades
South – 3NT – I really have hearts stopped
North – 4 Diamonds – Really interested in Diamond slam
South – I have the Ace of Hearts
North – 4 Spades – I have the Ace of Spades
South – 5 Hearts – I have the King of Hearts
North – 5 NT – Do you have 2 of the top three honors?
South – 7 Diamonds - No, but I have the King with extra diamond length for my bids

[inquiry]

South Deals:

North
S AKQ64
H Q4
D AJ9854
C VOID


South
S 72
H AK5
D KT76
C Q863

Two options for north. At matchpoints, you want the option of getting easily into spades, so you would respond 1S to 1D. The bidding would then be....

1D 1S
1NT 2D (2D part of two way checkbk, gf)
2NT 3D (3D = let's consider D's)
3H 3S (3H=cue, 3S=cue)
3NT 4H (4H = rkc, 5c = 2 without Q)
5C 5H (5H= specific king ask
5N 7D (5NT = heart king)
Pass

What north knows: 2NT over 2D = no 4 card heart suit, no 3 card spade support, so at least 4D's. Over 3D-3H and 3S are cue-bid, and south runs out of gas, so no club ace. 4H is RKC ala kantar (see www.kantarbridge.com for more). 5C shows two with no trump queen. 5H is specific king ask (again see kantar's page), 5NT = heart king. Partner as heart AK, Diamond K, four or more diamonds, no diamond queen.

But as north, I am thinking slam from the opening bid... so other than at matchpoints, I wouldn't worry about introducing spades naturally. I play 2D, not only inverted, but also game force ...

1D 2D
2H 2S 2H = something in hearts for NT
2N 3D
3H 3S
4D 4H (4H = Roman key card)
5C 5H (5H = specific king ask)
5N 7D (5N = heart king, no spade king)
Pass

Same knowledge as first auction. Over 2D, partner bids 2H showing some values in hearts (not a reverse). 2S shows values (3S also attractive alternative as a real reverse). 2NT clubs stuff... 3D want to play suit, 3H cue-bid, 3S cue-bid, 4D (or 3NT)... can't cue-bid in clubs, 4H again RKC, 5C = two without the queen. Now the logic from above applies.

Ben

PS... it occurs to me someone might ask if 1D-2D is game force, what do you do with diamond support and game invitational stregth? I play criss-cross....

1D-3C is good limit raise in diamonds
1C-2D is good limit raise in clubs....

[luis]

Quote

I appreciate the input, but it seems a natural system works quite well.

South –1 Club – Why open 1 Diamond when you plan to re-bid 1NT over 1 Spade?
North – 2 Diamonds – I have a good hand with a diamond suit
South – 3 Diamonds – I can live with diamonds
North – 3 Spades – I have something in spades
South – 3NT – I really have hearts stopped
North – 4 Diamonds – Really interested in Diamond slam
South – I have the Ace of Hearts
North – 4 Spades – I have the Ace of Spades
South – 5 Hearts – I have the King of Hearts
North – 5 NT – Do you have 2 of the top three honors?
South – 7 Diamonds - No, but I have the King with extra diamond length for my bids

In your dreams!
With all my respect this auction is comic...

Quote

North – 5 NT – Do you have 2 of the top three honors?
South – 7 Diamonds - No, but I have the King with extra diamond length

Result: 7d down 1, postmortem:

North: "I'm missing the trump Ace in 7 diammonds if 5nt asks you to bid 7 with 2 honors why the hell do you bid 7 with one?"
South: "Sorry, I read about a hand in the forums...."
North: "Can't you see we are not in the forums now? Bid like a normal person"
South: "If I bid like a normal person those guys playing Moscito laugh at my system in the forums"
North: "Please forget the forums!"
West: "I'm gonna lead the dA and concede to prevent a revoke"

[lenze]

Luis wrote:
In your dreams!
With all my respect this auction is comic...

Quote:
North – 5 NT – Do you have 2 of the top three honors?
South – 7 Diamonds - No, but I have the King with extra diamond length



Result: 7d down 1, postmortem:

North: "I'm missing the trump Ace in 7 diammonds if 5nt asks you to bid 7 with 2 honors why the hell do you bid 7 with one?"
South: "Sorry, I read about a hand in the forums...."
North: "Can't you see we are not in the forums now? Bid like a normal person"
South: "If I bid like a normal person those guys playing Moscito laugh at my system in the forums"
North: "Please forget the forums!"
West: "I'm gonna lead the dA and concede to prevent a revoke"


Luis, I admit this is a slim possibility, but do you really think North would jump shift and bid that strongly on a Q high suit? Not my partner!!!

[luis]

Quote

1D 1S
1NT 2D (2D part of two way checkbk, gf)
2NT 3D (3D = let's consider D's)
3H 3S (3H=cue, 3S=cue)
3NT 4H (4H = rkc, 5c = 2 without Q)
5C 5H (5H= specific king ask
5N 7D (5NT = heart king)
Pass

I'm mentally blocked but you just produced another "forced" unrealistic auction to the contract that makes

North's hand
xx, AKx, xxxx, AQxx

2 without the Q = checked
Specific king: Heart king = checked

How do you know opener's key card is the dK and not the cA ? Magic? Nah! You know the 2 hands!!!

Result: Down 1

I'm not 100% mentally blocked!!!!

Someone will post something like this soon:

1d 1h (1)
2d (2) 3d (3)
3h (4) 3s (5)
4h (6) 4s (7)
5d (8) 5n (9)
6d (10) 7d (11)

(1) I know 7d makes so lets start cheap
(2) I must tell him I don't have only 3 diammonds
(3) Support , he can't pass because we win 7d
(4) I have the heart ace (we never bid 3h with QJT showing a stopper in hands where 7d makes)
(5) Time to bid a AKQxx suit, we never try to play in an AKQxx suit if we win 7m
(6) Exactly the heart king
(7) Cuebid
(8) Something in diammonds
(9) What? What do you have in diammonds?
(10) The King (6c=queen, 6d=king, 6h=Ace)
(11) The right contract!!! we did it!!!!!

Credits

[inquiry]

North
S AKQ64
H Q4
D AJ9854
C VOID


South
S 72
H AK5
D KT76
C Q863

Since I gave an ultimate auction on an earlier hand, I thought, ok, I would give one on this one too. Here ultimate club runs into a problem if relays are used...

1D - 2C (2C = artificial (duh) game force)
2D - 2H (2D = no singleton or void, 2H relay)
2S - 2N (2S = 4333, 5332, or 4432 pattern)
3S - 4C (3S = 2-3-4-4 specifically, 4C controls?)
4H - 4S (4H = 4 controls, 4S deny cue bid start)
4NT - 5C (4nt denys spade AK or show S-AK, 5C = dca)
5H - ???? (5H shows diamond A or K, and denies or shows both heart honors)

Responder now knows that opener is either

xx
AKx
Kxxx
Qxxx or

xx
xxx
Kxxx
AKQx

Since he can't backup and play 5Diamonds, in for a penny in for a pound, he will bid 7Diamonds and hope the for the former not the latter. Not a very satisfying experience, but gets lucky this time. This where are the controls have cropped up a couple time in denial cue-bidding... seems like with a void and a suit with neither A or K, is when it happens. So, if you wanted to avoid such sillyness, playing ultimate club, you have to forgo the full relay, and break the chain over 2D.... with a game forcing 2S or 3D rebid. The auction will be based upon cuebidding from then.

Ben

[luis]

Quote

Luis, I admit this is a slim possibility, but do you really think North would jump shift and bid that strongly on a Q high suit? Not my partner!!!

Cmon, are you really bidding 7d when your pd asked you to bid 7 with 2 honors? Why is he asking?

What can he do with:

AKQJx
Qx
QJxxxx
-

We can't just invent auctions to justify we would reach 7d look at my 1st post I have a terrible problem playing the Chamaleon, a relay system because we can't know if pd has AK of hearts or AK of clubs (!) and I admit it....

Accept the facts you won't reach 7d wihout Exclusion Blackwood.

[lenze]

Quote

Quote

Luis, I admit this is a slim possibility, but do you really think North would jump shift and bid that strongly on a Q high suit? Not my partner!!!

Cmon, are you really bidding 7d when your pd asked you to bid 7 with 2 honors? Why is he asking?

What can he do with:

AKQJx
Qx
QJxxxx



We can't just invent auctions to justify we would reach 7d look at my 1st post I have a terrible problem playing the Chamaleon, a relay system because we can't know if pd has AK of hearts or AK of clubs (!) and I admit it....

Accept the facts you won't reach 7d wihout Exclusion Blackwood.

With this hand, I would expect him to bid 5 Spades(or6 Clubs) over 5 Hearts, putting the ball back in my court (Plus, I don't think he would have made the original jump shift with this hand)

[lifemonster]

Let's try my imaginative line.

South North
1D 1H
1NT 2C
2H 5C
5S 5NT
6D 7D
......

postmortem:
South:1D, as promised, 4-cd suit
North: 1H, aka, a Zian, I'm being creative
North: 2C, nmf
South: 2H, 3-cd support
North: 5C, cool, now I'm only concerned about keycards in hearts, you would respond 5D with 0 so we will play there would ya? and thx God we ain't playing 1430.
South: 5S, 2 without
North: 5NT, any K?
South: 6D, I have K of diamonds
North: 7D!!!Great! I've done it! This gotta be Romex Auction of the year. I can't wait to see IBPA put my name and picture on their headline.

(And the rest of the story)
South: 7H, sorry, I don't know what you are doing but...you did show hearts 1st time did you?
North: !@#$%^&. What a hopeless player. 7S. Let's hope spades break 3-3.
West: sorry guys, I have a spade stack and the Ace of clubs. I'm on lead and I'm not afraid of you running to 7NT coz I would be on lead again......where is that red card in my bidding box?

[inquiry]

Quote

I'm mentally blocked but you just produced another "forced" unrealistic auction to the contract that makes

[color=yellow][b]Oh... and Luis, I said you were mentally blocked on one hand (the other one from today) because you kept insisting that your auction was the only one you knew the grand was cold on.... when in fact, several standard auction provided exactly the same information you got from your 15 bid auction. Your "block" was you refused to accept that standard provided the same information. It wasn't that you were blocked on everything... i limited it to that one hand...[b][color]

North's hand
xx, AKx, xxxx, AQxx

2 without the Q = checked
Specific king: Heart king = checked

How do you know opener's key card is the dK and not the cA ? Magic? Nah! You know the 2 hands!!!

Result: Down 1

I'm not 100% mentally blocked!!!!

Luis, no wonder you gave up standard for mosquito, you don't know how to bid standard.

There is no way on god's green earth partner can hold the hand you dreamed up for my auction....

xx
AKx
xxxx
AQxx

For not one, not two, but three separate reasons. First, you do not open this hand 1D, but rather 1C. See either my first post of Fred's only post in the 1c or 1d opening thread...
http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...msg3421#msg3421

http://forums.bridgebase.com/in...d=164;user=fred

Second, if my partner, having lost his mind and opened 1D instead of the correct 1C, the bidding would have continued...

1D - 1S
1N - 2D (2D game force)
2N - 3D (real diamond fit)
3N -

(3D with all my stuff point, every single one in the other two suits, partner will have to drag me kicking and screaming to slam... I am not going to encourage. Besides, he may only be looking for good club stoppers for 3NT and I have them)

That is, partner would not be cue-bidding with AK of hearts, AQ of clubs, and not a single face card in either of our suit.

However, even if partner stubbornly opened 1D instead of 1C and then insist on cue-bidding 3H over 3D with the hand in question... he still can't go wrong...as now over the 3S cue bid he can't change his mind and retreat to 3NT. He has to continue and cue-bid his club control with 4C's. Now the cat is out of the bag and one still avoids the grand slam.

1D - 1S
1N - 2D
2N - 3D
3H - 3S
4C -

And know you know about the wasted diamond card.

So your theoretical hand is flawed not once, not twice, but three times. Opener simply can not possibly have that hand in standard auction. Since you play he can, it is no wonder you need you need relays and the such to keep your auctions straight.

Even a fair partner will open yoru hypothetical hand 1C, and even a bad partner will bail to 3NT over 3D, and no partner will a) open 1D, then make a positive cue bid of 3H, and then revert to 3NT. Your suggest hand simply is not possible...but it was a hoot to read.

Perhaps you equate bad bidding by novices playing SAYC with natural bidding using 2/1 with cool tools?

Ben

[EricK]

Quote

Playing IMP's (Swiss Teams), How would you and your partner bid these cards (no interference)?

South Deals:

North
S AKQ64
H Q4
D AJ9854
C VOID


South
S 72
H AK5
D KT76
C Q863

A natural auction, would go

1D 2S
2NT 3D
3H 3S
4H 4NT
5H 7D

2NT is natural and denies Spades support
3H, 3S, 4H are a control bid for D
4NT is RKB
5H shows 2 keycards, no DQ

This is a rare auction where you can Blackwood with a void, because partner has already denied CA.

It is harder if you don't have the strong jump shift in an otherwise natural system, but if you play some sort of checkback you should reach it. e.g. using two-way checkback

1D 1S
1NT 2D
2NT 3D
etc

2D is any GF
2NT denies 3S and 4H
3D sets D as trumps

Eric

[mishovnbg]

NTC v 2.50

AKQ64 72
Q4 AK5
AJ9854 KT76
- Q863

1SP(10-17,5+) 2CL(12+,R)
3CL(14-17,5-5+DI/6+-4DI 3DI®
3SP: 5+-5+, void CL 4CL: NAB
4HE: A/K DI, 0/AK SP 4SP: NAB
4NT: 0/AK HE 5CL: NAB
5HE: 1A (DI) 5SP: NAB
6HE: Q or +1 DI, Q SP, QHE 7DI: To play


Sorry if i bid it with opening from wrong side, now bids from other one ( not so different, hehe ).

- 1DI(10-17, 2+)
2HE: g/s try, 5+SP 2SP: 10-13
3CL: g/s try, 5+SP-5+DI 3DI: fit
3SP: s try, void CL 4CL: NAB
... same bids continue, look above

Misho