[1eyedjack]

When you complete the last hand of a tourney you get booted to lobby (or so it seems to me). If you were not the last table you might want to hang around in the tourney to listen to tourney chatter. You could via several mouse clicks go and find the continuing tourney but that is irritating. Also if you are the last table playing you may well miss a congratulatory roll call or other TD announcements.

[barmar]

I think it would make more sense for this to be part of the table tab -- the kibitzers aren't really an attribute of the player.

[cat76club]

I noticed the connection bars that show how fast my connection is, and like that.
My suggestion is to put those connection bars on the player nametags on the table,
so one can see if another player has a slow connection.

[1eyedjack]

I have been trying out a spanking new toy (not a new spanking toy ), which is to say a Windows 8 convertible laptop/tablet with touchscreen.

So far, playing on BBO with the Flash client has been pretty trouble-free, and I am relieved that I can select cards and bids etc by tapping on them directly on the screen. But there are one or two things that you could make more helpful in a later release:

1) Resizing the window.

I am accustomed with android devices in most apps to be able to zoom in and out of a window in a fluid manner by touching the screen simultaneously with thumb and forefinger initially placed close together and then dragging them apart on the screen (to enlarge) or start with them apart and drag them together (to shrink). Currently in BBO on Win8 all that I can achieve is two zoom settings, between which you can toggle by double-tapping on the screen. This is a bit restrictive for me. Especially if I am touching the screen in "tablet mode" to select bids and plays, then even the larger of the two available settings is sometimes not large enough to overcome the risk of mis-click.

Maybe Flash imposes restrictions in this area that we cannot overcome?

2) Scrolling a zoomed-in window

Having zoomed in (even by the existing limited method of double-tapping on the screen to get a one-off zoom) it would be nice to scroll the magnified window by dragging your finger over the surface, rather than by using the scroll bars at the margins of the window

3) Getting description of robot bids

With the keyboard enabled, you can get the meanings of GIB bids by hovering the mouse over the bid.

Relying solely on tablet mode this is not possible. I would have hoped that tapping on the bid would have this effect.

Maybe if you programmed it so that either hovering on the bid or clicking on the bid with the mouse would both have the effect of displaying GIB bid meanings, then you would get the best of both worlds. For those using keyboards they would have the benefit of not having to click on the bid before getting the explanation. For those not using keyboards you would have to tap on the bid (equivalent to mouse click on bid) but that at least would get the desired response.

[alanrick]

Hi 1eyedjack,
1. Have you used the native Windows 8 screen-splitter?
IMHO far superior to messing around resizing windows - especially with touch.
E.g. BBO in one screen half (in the Chrome browser) and skype or Internet Explorer in the other.

3. I agree.
Tapping on the bid would work both on touch and non-touch devices just like tapping on a player's name brings up their profile (no hover). BTW. I wish you could remove the profile by clicking somewhere else on the screen (such as the green felt) instead of having to wait for it to disappear.

OT: I just noticed that on a bidding table you can hover over a bid to see the meaning of the bid you're about to make (won't be able to provide that on a touch device) and also the wizard for starting a new table. Love both features

BTW: Launch help+tips from your start screen to see video tutorials on how to use the new Windows features. screen-splitter is called "Applications side by side" by Microsoft.

Alan

[1eyedjack]

 alanrick, on 2014-March-30, 03:48, said:

1. Have you used the native Windows 8 screen-splitter?
IMHO far superior to messing around resizing windows - especially with touch.
E.g. BBO in one screen half (in the Chrome browser) and skype or Internet Explorer in the other.

I am pretty sure that we are talking at complete cross-purposes here. It is true that I am a complete newbie to Win8 and have not tried the screen-splitter.
However I am not particularly interested in resizing the windows, ie by adjusting their borders, but am interested in resizing the text and graphics etc, ie visible area, within a window. I would envisage the window itself retaining its original dimensions during this process, and horizontal and vertical scroll bars would appear to enable navigation to hidden areas created by having zoomed in (but subject to shortcut in item 2) At least, that was the issue in point 1 of my post above

 alanrick, on 2014-March-30, 03:48, said:

OT: I just noticed that on a bidding table you can hover over a bid to see the meaning of the bid you're about to make (won't be able to provide that on a touch device) and also the wizard for starting a new table. Love both features

I had not thought of this but it is another valid point. We should be moving to an environment in which you can survive with just a tablet and, where required, a virtual keyboard embedded in the tablet screen.

My suggestion for a solution to how to get an explanation that you are about to make before committing to it, without keyboard assistance would be to have a long press on the bid pop up a menu, which would include "Confirm bid" and "Cancel", with the explanation of the bid being displayed in the popup.

[1eyedjack]

 1eyedjack, on 2014-March-29, 14:08, said:

1) Resizing the window.

I am accustomed with android devices in most apps to be able to zoom in and out of a window in a fluid manner by touching the screen simultaneously with thumb and forefinger initially placed close together and then dragging them apart on the screen (to enlarge) or start with them apart and drag them together (to shrink). Currently in BBO on Win8 all that I can achieve is two zoom settings, between which you can toggle by double-tapping on the screen. This is a bit restrictive for me. Especially if I am touching the screen in "tablet mode" to select bids and plays, then even the larger of the two available settings is sometimes not large enough to overcome the risk of mis-click.

Maybe Flash imposes restrictions in this area that we cannot overcome?

2) Scrolling a zoomed-in window

Having zoomed in (even by the existing limited method of double-tapping on the screen to get a one-off zoom) it would be nice to scroll the magnified window by dragging your finger over the surface, rather than by using the scroll bars at the margins of the window

UPDATE

I have observed that in the "Accessibility Tools" that come bundled with Windows 8, and I am pretty sure with earlier versions of Windows, is a Magnifying Glass tool.

The original tool (ie in earlier versions) will have been provided for the benefit of those with failing eyesight rather than those with fat fingers trying to tap with precision on a small card symbol on a touch sensitive screen. Touchscreens were not much in evidence in those early days (or the OS did not cater for them). Nevertheless it is of some benefit for the latter purpose with the advent of Windows 8 and proliferation of touchscreens.

At least, it OUGHT to be a dinosaur, because like I said initially, simply spreading your fingers on the screen should in the modern day have the same effect and with greater convenience and precision. However, it remains of some benefit in those instances where spreading your fingers on the screen does not have any effect.

It is still not ideal. The magnifying glass tool acts similar to the double-tap on the screen, in that it will only magnify in quantum leaps. Furthermore, having magnified it, scrolling the window is cumbersome. It may not be behaving properly on my machine, but I can only scroll the window if I start at one of the scroll bars. Ironically, as long as I leave my finger on the screen having started at the scroll bar at the edge, it will allow me to scroll in two dimensions by dragging the finger over the centre part of the screen. Only I have to start in a diagonal direction or it will only scroll in one dimension thereafter. Very odd.

Another observation: If you pull up the "Results" tab for a completed tourney, the results within that tab DO scroll by dragging the finger vertically in the middle of the tab. So the solution is in sight, but it only applies in certain specific occasions. What is more, I am encouraged to observe also that, again with the Results tab displayed, you CAN re-size this text by placing two fingers simultaneously within that window and either dragging them apart (to enlarge) or together (to shrink). And in so doing, the background window from which the Results tab is picked also gets re-sized. So, the mechanism is there; it is just a question of extending its application to the whole of BBO generally.

[1eyedjack]

UPDATE

Earlier I wrote

 1eyedjack, on 2014-March-29, 14:08, said:

3) Getting description of robot bids

With the keyboard enabled, you can get the meanings of GIB bids by hovering the mouse over the bid.

Relying solely on tablet mode this is not possible. I would have hoped that tapping on the bid would have this effect.

Maybe if you programmed it so that either hovering on the bid or clicking on the bid with the mouse would both have the effect of displaying GIB bid meanings, then you would get the best of both worlds. For those using keyboards they would have the benefit of not having to click on the bid before getting the explanation. For those not using keyboards you would have to tap on the bid (equivalent to mouse click on bid) but that at least would get the desired response.

Then later in the thread in response to some correspondence I wrote

 1eyedjack, on 2014-March-30, 04:13, said:

My suggestion for a solution to how to get an explanation that you are about to make before committing to it, without keyboard assistance would be to have a long press on the bid pop up a menu, which would include "Confirm bid" and "Cancel", with the explanation of the bid being displayed in the popup.

It now occurs to me that this suggested solution would have a wider application, by which I mean at tables where no robots are playing. In this situation the consequence of hovering a mouse over a bid differs where the bid was by a human with a human partner than it does where a robot is in the partnership. With two human opponents, clicking on the bid would issue a request for an explanation. What we need is a method, on a touchscreen machine, with no keyboard or mouse, to distinguish between a request for a meaning to a bid on the one hand, and on the other a simple review of whatever explanation might have already been provided.

Well, there are only two situations that require distinguishing, and fortunately we have two methods to achieve it with just the screen and fingertip. Under my proposal

1) A simple short tap on a historic bid made by an entirely human partnership would issue to a human bidder a request for the bid to be explained.

2) A simple short tap on a historic bid made by a player in a partnership at least one of whom is a robot would request the GIB explanation to be displayed

3) A long press on a historic bid would cause any existing explanation for the bid to be displayed. Where either opponent is a robot the effect would be identical to item 2 above, but where both are humans its effect would be distinguished from item 1 in that it would not issue any request to the opponent. I have in mind the scenario where a manual alert and explanation has already been provided and you seek only to review that explanation without issuing a repeat request.

4) A simple short tap on a bid available to you when it is your turn to bid, but not yet made, would cause that bid to be submitted to the table

5) A long press on a bid available to you when it is your turn to bid, but not yet made, would cause the meaning of the bid to be displayed (or a message to the effect that no definition is available). This option would generally only have any effect if you are partnering a robot or have loaded a "Full Disclosure" convention card with a human.

Originally I suggested that a long press should pop up a menu. That would certainly be consistent with the accepted protocol for long presses in general, but it would only be necessary if more than one option were potentially required. Aside from cancelling the message I don't expect that there would be any call for that. I think that the best way to handle it would be for the message to fade out after a time interval (possibly user definable interval), similar to when you click on a player's name to view the profile. The explanation for the bid would have buttons displayed on it to "Pin" it or (scenario 5 only) to "submit" the bid to the table.

For those with mice the act of hovering the mouse over a bid would have the effect of a long press on the bid per scenarios 3 and 5 above as described in tablet mode, as indeed it currently behaves.

[alanrick]

Talking of fat fingers.
Sadly, Microsoft only paid lip service to the touch screen desktop (IMHO touch is the most useful thing to have happened to Windows in 10 years).

Here's a setting that doesn't help BBO Web but makes many other Windows programs much easier to use with touch http://ow.ly/i/3wpHj/original
All the best,
Alan

[barmar]

As far as BBO is concerned, when you're using the Windows 8 tablet, it's just a web browser. The web version of BBO is designed for desktop/laptop computers. If you're running it on a mobile device with no mouse, it's up to the OS to emulate the mouse's features. All our touch-specific features are in the mobile app, not the web app, and this is only available for iOS and Android.

[1eyedjack]

 barmar, on 2014-March-30, 22:43, said:

As far as BBO is concerned, when you're using the Windows 8 tablet, it's just a web browser.

Umm yes, well there is a lot of stuff that happens on BBO website that is programmed in by you guys over and above the functionality built into the browser.

 barmar, on 2014-March-30, 22:43, said:

The web version of BBO is designed for desktop/laptop computers.

This is promising. The term "designed" implies a "designer". Designers make choices. One choice that they MIGHT make if so minded and if possible (depending on benefit to effort ratio), is to make the interface easier to use on a Windows 8 tablet

 barmar, on 2014-March-30, 22:43, said:

If you're running it on a mobile device with no mouse, it's up to the OS to emulate the mouse's features.

This is discouraging, implying that it is beyond your capabilities to overwrite this behaviour within the Flash app (a bit like logging chat locally). It is not absolutely clear that this is what you are saying. If it is simply impossible to implement, then you could say so and that is the end of the matter. I just find it very surprising, if that is the case. I would expect the OS to be responsible for detecting whether you have clicked on a button or long-pressed on a button (or right-mouse-clicked, or hovered over it), but it would be up to the designer within the app to specify what action ensues from that click. How, for example, could the OS possibly predict the content of a popup menu?

 barmar, on 2014-March-30, 22:43, said:

All our touch-specific features are in the mobile app, not the web app, and this is only available for iOS and Android.

I am aware of this. But this sub-forum is meant to be a wish-list for the future, for which purpose a statement of the current status is of use only in highlighting its room for improvement.

In summary, I am not a programmer, and generally I am not competent to comment on whether something is possible or how hard it would be. To some extent I can comment on what is possible, ie where I have seen it implemented elsewhere. In other apps I have witnessed the effect of long-presses on buttons, clicking on buttons, hovering on buttons and so forth. These behaviours are personalised to the app and can only have been programmed by the apps' designers, perhaps taking advantage of tools provided by the OS.

It does seem to me that turning the Flash "desktop" app into one that doubles as a "Windows 8 tablet-friendly mobile" app may not require a substantial re-write. "Simply" implementing the above suggestion (if possible) would take you the vast majority of the way there, and that is what this suggestion is all about. If you have the capability to do so but choose not to do it, then that is your decision, Perhaps the resources required would be prohibitive. That would be sad, because I think it will benefit a large number of the site's users, as touchscreen windows devices grow. Well, maybe they will wither rather than grow, but as the Flash interface is so bound to Windows in the first place it seems an inconsistent approach to continue to rely on Windows dominance but not to embrace the onward march of touchscreen technology.

So in my opinion it is all down to how difficult it would be to implement, rather than on whether it is possible, and I cannot comment on that.

[barmar]

 1eyedjack, on 2014-March-31, 00:12, said:

This is promising. The term "designed" implies a "designer". Designers make choices. One choice that they MIGHT make if so minded and if possible (depending on benefit to effort ratio), is to make the interface easier to use on a Windows 8 tablet

More to the point, when it was designed there was no such thing as a tablet computer, so there was no reason to put in code to accomodate them.

I don't know much about Flash, so I'm not even sure if it has methods to handle things like this -- Fred could confirm or deny.

[1eyedjack]

Thanks for taking an interest, anyway. Certainly there may be a bit of work involved to define a long-press on a touchscreen to simulate a hover with a mouse,

But on the subject of resizing the display by spreading or pinching fingers on the display surface you are already ALMOST there. Clearly as you have done nothing to program it this is entirely down to the OS. Nevertheless it may be instructive to explore this a bit further because it is frustratingly short of being all the way there. If there is something that you can do at your end to go the extra mile then it would be worth it. What I mean by all this is:

As mentioned earlier, if you open the results of a completed tourney, then with that window open, full touchscreen expand and shrink capability is there. Even if you close that mini-window having first expanded the image, you can then continue to expand shrink and scroll, although once you stop doing so, so the facility to repeat the process is denied. But I also find that this effect is not just limited to reviewing results of past tourneys, but also works if you open a news item window.

[barmar]

Those pop-up windows are ordinary web pages overlaying the BBO window using iframes. For that we're using a third-party library (called jQuery), and it handles this stuff automatically if the browser doesn't.

[1eyedjack]

This may seem (probably is) a trivial point, but I find the some of the system popup messages irritating, such as:

"Fetching deals, Please wait" (when starting an Instant Tourney)
"Chat is now being displayed on a tab at the right of the screen" (after dragging the horizontal chat border to the bottom)
"Switching seats so that player can declare" (during robot tourneys where human would otherwise by dummy)

There may be other examples that I have not thought of

My objections to these messages are:

They take too long to disappear
There is no option to close the message prior to their fading out automatically
While they are displayed they obliterate my cards displayed behind the message.

The "Fetching deals" message is utterly superfluous, as the deals have invariably already been "fetched" by the time that the message is displayed.

The "Chat is being displayed on a tab at the right" message is arguably of value the first time that you do it (although it is pretty obvious anyway). Certainly the message is superfluous the second and subsequent time (and perhaps the setting should be remembered anyway).

The "Switching seats" message arguably has some enduring benefit to the idiots for more than just the first occasion of display, but for me it is a net irritation, because it causes my Diamond holding to be concealed and I have enough experience in robot tourneys to know that this has happened.

[alanrick]

 1eyedjack, on 2014-April-12, 10:40, said:

"Chat is being displayed on a tab at the right"

My partner complained that his chat has vanished to the tabs and I could help him get it back to normal again. Does the message say how to revert to normal?

[diana_eva]

 1eyedjack, on 2014-April-12, 10:40, said:

....
They take too long to disappear
There is no option to close the message prior to their fading out automatically
While they are displayed they obliterate my cards displayed behind the message.
...

Click or tap the message and it will go away right away, you don't have to wait until it fades.

[barmar]

 diana_eva, on 2014-April-14, 03:11, said:

Click or tap the message and it will go away right away, you don't have to wait until it fades.

That's true in the web version, are you sure it also works in mobile?

I usually use mobile in potrait mode, and the message doesn't cover the cards, it just covers the buttons at the top.

The messages about loading hands and switching positions aren't specific to the moble version, they're also in the web version. I made the same suggestion to Fred and Uday last week that the "switching" message is pretty useless and tiresome to anyone who has played in more than a handful of robot tournaments.

[alanrick]

 barmar, on 2014-April-14, 09:13, said:

That's true in the web version, are you sure it also works in mobile?

I thought this thread was about the Web version. And unfortunately there is no help about how to get back when you accidentally move the chat to the right hand tabs.
I've just moved chat to see what my partner did... and now I'm stuck with chat on the right *cry*

[1eyedjack]

 alanrick, on 2014-April-14, 12:16, said:

I thought this thread was about the Web version. And unfortunately there is no help about how to get back when you accidentally move the chat to the right hand tabs.
I've just moved chat to see what my partner did... and now I'm stuck with chat on the right *cry*

Drag the bottom border back up to about a third of the way up the screen, and the chat reappears on the bottom