[dickiegera]

---

Do you agree with the double by WEST with only 9 Pts?

Do you agree with EAST bidding Hearts before Diamonds?
East bid 2♥ hoping for a game in Hearts, then 5♦ as a sacrifice

[aguahombre]

The rookie mistake was 5H. I have no problem with West judging to double, nor with East's choices. I would never assume as West that Pard is equal length in the reds or longer in hearts...ever. If he wanted West's choice of trumps, he could ask for it with 4N/4S...having shown the two suits earlier...but even without that, West should pass.

[rmnka447]

The initial double is too rich for me, especially since the biggest chunk of points is the stiff A in the opponent's suit. Part of the problem with that card is that it detracts from essential suit quality in the suits you do hold.

That leads directly to the second issue with doubler's hand, suit quality. All of doubler's suits have either honor and small cards or all small cards. They don't the honor combinations or honor/intermediate (10s,9s) holdings necessary to limiting the amount of losers in the suit. As trump, opposite four small in partner's hand, all of doubler's suits are going to lose at least 2 and possibly 3 tricks to the opponents.

Mel Colchimaro, the ACBL Bulletin columnist and noted bridge teacher, recommends a minimum takeout double HCP count of 10 plus the number of cards in the opponent's suit. So on the hand given, he'd want 11 HCP minimum for a takeout double. That's a pretty good, workable standard to use.

How light you double is partly a matter of style. But if you regularly double with hand's as light as this one and with hands of approximately opening values or better, consider how much more difficult it becomes for partner to accurately assess where the hand belongs.

As for advancer's hand, I'd simply bid 3 ♦ with it. That shows about 8-10 points and presumably a good 5-6 card ♦ suit. While it's possible the ♥ suit might be lost, it gives a pretty accurate picture of what advancer's hand is. If game is to be bid, doubler has to have a bit better more than an opening bid. So advancer may get a second chance to show ♥s. It's even possible that doubler has the 16-18 point ♥ overcall hand. Advancer would have little problem bidding on to game if doubler shows that hand.

One important point -- doubler guarantees only a minimum of 3 cards in any suit, there's no guarantee that an 8 card ♥ fit even exists. A double will routinely be made with something like ♠ AKxx ♥ AJx ♦ xxxx ♣ xx. Opposite advancer's hand, a ♦ part score with a 10 card fit is vastly superior to playing in the 7 card ♥ fit.

The problem with trying for a ♥ contract before showing the longer ♦ suit is that doubler will never figure out that advancer has longer ♦s than ♥s. In the actual auction, it sounds to doubler like advancer is at least 5-5 in the red suits.

[ggwhiz]

Our partnership agreement is that double shows the real goods and we can freely overcall at the 1 level on 4-card suits. That said the west hand is still a pass for us with poor quality suits.

We balance aggressively and bid hearts first too but it's all a matter of previously discussed style. It certainly doesn't work ALL the time but we are comfortable with it. That discussion on 4-card suit overcalls or light doubles on the right shape should put your partnership on the same page and either one is playable as long as both of you play it.

[the_clown]

I think X is really poor with a 9 count, especially when you have half your points in their suit. As East, I would start with 2♣ to show a strong hand, opposite as little as Axxx KJ10x xxx xx game is on a finess.

[VM1973]

I think West is a full king below a normal takeout double. East must have seen West bid this way before because his bidding is unusually restrained - he has a full opener, opposite partner's supposed opener, and he contents himself with a simple 2♥ call? Why isn't he cuebidding?

[Codo]

VM1973, on 2013-August-29, 13:46, said:

I think West is a full king below a normal takeout double. East must have seen West bid this way before because his bidding is unusually restrained - he has a full opener, opposite partner's supposed opener, and he contents himself with a simple 2♥ call? Why isn't he cuebidding?

You surely do not double enough if this is your limit for a take out double. I guess that with f.e Axxx,Kqxx,JTxx,x a majority on bbf had doubled....

[jdeegan]

Oh boy! Life down in the jungle is hard.
1. the initial TO double is pushy, but personally I would make it. Your hand evaluates as (nearly) 12 dummy points in any suit but clubs.
2. the correct response with the east hand is 3♦. Two ♥ is lunacy.
The subsequent fiasco follows from this initial blunder by east.

[cargobeep]

5H is lunacy.

[aguahombre]

jdeegan, on 2013-August-30, 08:36, said:

Oh boy! Life down in the jungle is hard.
2. the correct response with the east hand is 3♦. Two ♥ is lunacy.
The subsequent fiasco follows from this initial blunder by east.

I don't believe we can label East's strategy (as explained in the OP) as "correct" or incorrect; merely one with which we agree or disagree.

The 5♦ bid might well have been a good decision later, as we can see how their 4S contract is probably a make.

The fiasco occurred because West failed to realize after he didn't do anything at his next opportunity over 2H or the following round he wasn't being invited to participate at the 5-level. East is the boss, there. When we sacrifice, we want to have a lot of trumps (10), rather than eight. Hearts is a higher-scoring contract only if it makes.

[VM1973]

Codo, on 2013-August-30, 05:22, said:

You surely do not double enough if this is your limit for a take out double. I guess that with f.e Axxx,Kqxx,JTxx,x a majority on bbf had doubled....

Perhaps you are right that a large number of people would double with the hand you posted. I would not be one of them, but I think that the hand you've posted is far different from the one posted above.
♠Axxx
♥KQxx
♦JTxx
♣x

is a better hand than

♠Kxxx
♥Qxxx
♦JTxx
♣A

as surely the ♣A is not providing all the value one might hope for.

[Codo]

yes, you are right, the hand from the OP would not be a majorities choice for a double, nor would it be mine choice.
I just disagree with your attitude that he needs a king more to double. He needs his HCPs in the right suits to make it a close call.

[jdeegan]

aguahombre, on 2013-August-30, 08:54, said:

I don't believe we can label East's strategy (as explained in the OP) as "correct" or incorrect; merely one with which we agree or disagree.

The 5♦ bid might well have been a good decision later, as we can see how their 4S contract is probably a make.

The fiasco occurred because West failed to realize after he didn't do anything at his next opportunity over 2H or the following round he wasn't being invited to participate at the 5-level. East is the boss, there. When we sacrifice, we want to have a lot of trumps (10), rather than eight. Hearts is a higher-scoring contract only if it makes.

East's 'strategy' is that he/she doesn't know how to bid. On that auction, responding to partner's take out double in a suit of four to the nine instead of one with AKQxxx indicates either you have been taking your bridge lessons from the wrong people, or that you are seriously addled in the brain. LHO opened the bidding. Partner doubled. RHO bid one♠. Do you seriously think there is more than a very, very remote chance that your side has game in hearts and hearts only? The possibility of losing the heart suit is nothing compared to properly placing your side for what is shaping up to be a competitive auction. Plus, you want a diamond lead, if it comes to that. Lunacy as a personal choice I can respect, but it is what it is.

[VM1973]

Codo, on 2013-August-30, 11:03, said:

yes, you are right, the hand from the OP would not be a majorities choice for a double, nor would it be mine choice.
I just disagree with your attitude that he needs a king more to double. He needs his HCPs in the right suits to make it a close call.

♠K873
♥Q872
♦8763
♣A

A=6, K=4, Q=2 accordingly we have 12 points for honours.
For shape you get 4+4+3 = 11
12+11 = 23 zar points
Since you need 26 to open you're 3 short even without adjustments for the defect of having a stiff ace.

[RSClyde]

VM1973, on 2013-August-30, 15:19, said:

♠K873
♥Q872
♦8763
♣A

A=6, K=4, Q=2 accordingly we have 12 points for honours.
For shape you get 4+4+3 = 11
12+11 = 23 zar points
Since you need 26 to open you're 3 short even without adjustments for the defect of having a stiff ace.

You're not opening, you're making a takeout double. You are the one short in the opponents' suit. This is surely among the considerations, otherwise you'd be doing the same math when they open 1D instead.

[VM1973]

RSClyde, on 2013-August-30, 16:21, said:

You're not opening, you're making a takeout double. You are the one short in the opponents' suit. This is surely among the considerations, otherwise you'd be doing the same math when they open 1D instead.

Do you feel that a takeout double by an unpassed hand should show an opening hand or better?

[mgoetze]

VM1973, on 2013-August-30, 17:22, said:

Do you feel that a takeout double by an unpassed hand should show an opening hand or better?

I can't speak for RSClyde specifically but I can assure you that those who "feel" that way are in a very small minority here.

[RSClyde]

VM1973, on 2013-August-30, 17:22, said:

Do you feel that a takeout double by an unpassed hand should show an opening hand or better?

You're missing the point here:
The following hand is a clear takeout double of 1♥
Axxx
x
Axxx
Axxx
But if hand quality was all that mattered, using (Zar points, Goren points, or whatever you like) then the hand would also be a take out double over 1♠ which it is clearly not. Having shortness increases the value of a hand, but completely separate from that, having shortness in the opponents' suit greatly increases the strength of a takeout double, because it maximizes the number of cards available for partner in any suit that he bids and because you may be the only one with a path into the auction.

[PhilKing]

It seems to me that a lot of people are missing the point about the East hand. You have play for game opposite:

♠xxxx
♥AQxx
♦xxxx
♣x

Just cue bid 2♣ and raise a red suit to game. If it gets competitive, back in with diamonds at whatever level you have reached. If you can't make it, then the oppo must be pretty close to a black suit game. If neither side can make anything, it's just a cold deck!

[RSClyde]

By the way, does anyone else play double over the 1♠ response as responsive, showing 4+ diamonds and hearts? My partner and I do this to make sure that we end up in the right suit rather than trying to scramble into a suit partner has 4 of. The utility of playing the double as penalty seems low since virtually no one plays new suits on the 1 level as non-forcing.