[wanoff]

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Acol, 4cd majors, RKCB

Any ideas what 4NT might be ?

[anzin]

I read it this way: 2♠=4th suit game forcing, 3♥= agreeing trumps slam try, thus 4NT=Blackwood

[Fluffy]

agree with the above, it is not really needed but for me 3♥ is 100% fit.

[Cyberyeti]

This entirely depends if you play kickback. If 4♠ asks for aces then 4N is voidwood in spades if you play this otherwise quantitative, otherwise it's keycard IMO.

How you bid xxxx, Ax, Ax, AKQJx is not clear to me however.

[mgoetze]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-August-30, 16:22, said:

This entirely depends if you play kickback.

Uhm... I would suggest you give serious consideration to discussing things like whether 3♥ here guarantees a fit before introducing kickback to your partnership. I mean, sheesh Yeti, do you really think this answer is helping anyone?

Whether 2♦ guarantees 5 hearts depends which flavour of ACOL you play but 3♦ surely must show 5-5, so I would agree that 3♥ sets trumps and 4NT is therefore RKCB.

[Cyberyeti]

mgoetze, on 2013-August-30, 17:15, said:

Uhm... I would suggest you give serious consideration to discussing things like whether 3♥ here guarantees a fit before introducing kickback to your partnership. I mean, sheesh Yeti, do you really think this answer is helping anyone?

Whether 2♦ guarantees 5 hearts depends which flavour of ACOL you play but 3♦ surely must show 5-5, so I would agree that 3♥ sets trumps and 4NT is therefore RKCB.

Well if you ever under any circumstances play kickback, 4♠ is clearly that so 4N is something else.

What do you do with a 4 small 225 18-19 with Hx or HH hearts ? I agree 3♥ suggests playing in hearts, but am not sure it categorically guarantees a "proper" fit.

2♦ guarantees 5♥ in most forms of Acol, 3♦ absolutely confirms 5-5.

I think with a pickup partner I just give my "2 without" 5♥ response which is unlikely to cause too much trouble if misinterpreted.

[wanoff]

Fluffy, on 2013-August-30, 15:19, said:

agree with the above, it is not really needed but for me 3♥ is 100% fit.

I'm not disagreeing just curious.
Does that mean showing 5-3 heart fit at the 3 level is more important than the right strain ?
I'm thinking of the possible 6-2 heart fit when spades might not be that well stopped.

[cherdano]

Is everyone assuming a version of ACOL where 3♥ one round earlier (1H-2C-2D-3H) is non-forcing? Otherwise it would be crazy IMO to play 3♥ in the given auction as promising a fit. Are we really delaying the forcing raise with 3-card support to cater for the rare hand where opener is 4441??

[Cyberyeti]

cherdano, on 2013-September-02, 06:48, said:

Is everyone assuming a version of ACOL where 3♥ one round earlier (1H-2C-2D-3H) is non-forcing? Otherwise it would be crazy IMO to play 3♥ in the given auction as promising a fit. Are we really delaying the forcing raise with 3-card support to cater for the rare hand where opener is 4441??

This may not even be possible, while quite a few people open 1♥ with 4441, also plenty don't (we open 1♦).

[gordontd]

cherdano, on 2013-September-02, 06:48, said:

Is everyone assuming a version of ACOL where 3♥ one round earlier (1H-2C-2D-3H) is non-forcing?

Is there another version?

[Fluffy]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-August-30, 16:22, said:

How you bid xxxx, Ax, Ax, AKQJx is not clear to me however.

If we just had a bid with no natural purposes below 3NT to spare...

[fromageGB]

Cyberyeti is right to raise the possibility of kickback, because this is the IA forum, and if you are playing it 4NT can be spades voidwood.

But go back a bit. I take it the 2♦ limited opener's hand to say less than 17, so what is 3♥? If responder had 3 hearts he could just bid game or ace ask. If responder has 3 hearts, 3♥ is therefore inviting a cue bid, and 3♠ is the standout continuation on the hand. That wasn't bid, suggesting that cue bidding is not in the curriculum. So probably 3♥ shows just a doubleton, in case opener had 6, and 3NT is a suggestion to play. Therefore 4NT is inviting 6NT if opener has a 15 count.

If I was in this situation I pass.

[PhilG007]

fromageGB, on 2013-September-03, 14:56, said:

Cyberyeti is right to raise the possibility of kickback, because this is the IA forum, and if you are playing it 4NT can be spades voidwood.

But go back a bit. I take it the 2♦ limited opener's hand to say less than 17, so what is 3♥? If responder had 3 hearts he could just bid game or ace ask. If responder has 3 hearts, 3♥ is therefore inviting a cue bid, and 3♠ is the standout continuation on the hand. That wasn't bid, suggesting that cue bidding is not in the curriculum. So probably 3♥ shows just a doubleton, in case opener had 6, and 3NT is a suggestion to play. Therefore 4NT is inviting 6NT if opener has a 15 count.

If I was in this situation I pass.

Why go into NTs when a trump fit has been found????? The singleton club is an asset in a trump contract as a ruffing value
and a liability in NTs.

[wank]

even playing acol 3h is played as forcing as far as i'm concerned. 3h was just looking for a 6th heart or spade stop then and this is quantitative.

[fromageGB]

PhilG007, on 2013-September-04, 01:40, said:

Why go into NTs when a trump fit has been found????? The singleton club is an asset in a trump contract as a ruffing value
and a liability in NTs.

I am attempting to decipher the bidding. If 3NT is natural, and not a spade cue when 3♠ would be the "serious 3NT" when hearts are trumps, then there is no good fit. North has black suit lengths equivalent to South's reds, and the strength to go with it, more strength than South.