[CamHenry]

---

Last night I found myself playing 7NT on a club lead, ducked to the K. We'd had a slight misunderstanding about partner's ideal followup to 4th suit forcing on this hand type, and he showed spade tolerance; when I found he had 3 keycards I thought I could count 13 tricks. Dummy came down; I won the opening lead in hand and led to the ♠K. RHO shows out; time to plan the play!

[Fluffy]

Spoiler

at first sight with spades on the left the only squeeze to operate is a black one, cashing ♦A and then running hearts.

However before that cash ♣AQ because ♣J falling third will mean we can survive hearts 4-1 as well.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2013-August-30, 03:14, said:

Spoiler

at first sight with spades on the left the only squeeze to operate is a black one, cashing ♦A and then running hearts.

However before that cash ♣AQ because ♣J falling third will mean we can survive hearts 4-1 as well.

Spoiler

How unless J is stiff ? you have no way back to dummy to cash 4 hearts

[Free]

Why didn't I cash ♥KQ before playing ♠? We have blocking issues, it's free and might have given us useful information to run ♥T instead of crossing to ♠K.

[Cyberyeti]

Free, on 2013-August-30, 04:38, said:

Why didn't I cash ♥KQ before playing ♠? We have blocking issues, it's free and might have given us useful information to run ♥T instead of crossing to ♠K.

This is true, but are you really expecting LHO to have 4 hearts, 4 spades, enough diamonds to stop his partner bidding them and to have led a club, if anybody has 4 hearts it will be RHO.

[cargobeep]

Need more information to make an informed decision.

Mainly:

1) What got thrown off?

2) Is this IMPS or MPS?

[Free]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-August-30, 04:45, said:

This is true, but are you really expecting LHO to have 4 hearts, 4 spades, enough diamonds to stop his partner bidding them and to have led a club, if anybody has 4 hearts it will be RHO.

No, but when RHO has 4♥s you can't pick them up anyway after playing a ♠ to the K (you're blocked). At that time you don't know that LHO has 4♠s, but it might as well be RHO who has 4♠s (which you also can't pick up).

[Cyberyeti]

Free, on 2013-August-30, 08:32, said:

No, but when RHO has 4♥s you can't pick them up anyway after playing a ♠ to the K (you're blocked). At that time you don't know that LHO has 4♠s, but it might as well be RHO who has 4♠s (which you also can't pick up).

This is true, it looks like good technique, but doesn't help you in this case.

[mikeh]

We can't make this hand if RHO guards clubs, since no single nor double squeeze operates: one needs the threat(s) behind, not in front of, the guarding hand.

So assume LHO has both blacks, odd tho it is to have led from Jxxx(x) in clubs....maybe he had no good lead.

We want to reduce to an end position in which he can't keep Jxx Jxx in the blacks.

If we simply cash 5 hearts after the finding out the spade position, we will have reduced to a 6 card ending: 10 void Q AQ10x opposite AQxx void Ax void.

That permits LHO to hold onto the Jxx in both blacks. We can of course force him to pitch from one of these by cashing the diamond A, a suit in which he has been forced to void himself, but that leaves him with an easy club pitch, since we can't cash the diamond and still get back to the clubs.

It is all too easy to stumble into this trap. The key is to mentally play out the hand: to picture the holdings you want to create. if you do this, and it takes practice and focus, then you will see that you can avoid this, and make the trap inescapable, by the counter-intuitive (to an inexperienced player) play of cashing that diamond A early.

Now, doing so negates any chance of establishing the diamond Q as a trick....but for that to happen, LHO has to have both blacks guarded AND the diamond K. If that were the case, one dodges the bullet of not cashing the diamond Ace because in the 6 card endgame, LHO is already in a 3 suit squeeze!

However, given that we are playing LHO for 8 black cards, and 5 reds, and RHO for 3 (or fewer) clubs and the rest reds, the odds are against LHO holding the diamond K (tho his dangerous club lead makes it not as unlikely as a priori)

[cargobeep]

^ Your line doesn't work. In fact, with the several lines I've tested double-dummy, you're either

1) screwed after playing the K♠ (the pitches are all extremely obvious, no way to make a mistake).

2) able to simply cash your high cards until either the J♣ or J♥ falls, which as far as I know, will on any makeable layout. This is likely since the 2D/3D preempt never happened. Some layouts do require a squeeze, but those are pretty well automatic on this hand

I think it's time to see the original hand.

[nige1]

CamHenry, on 2013-August-30, 02:30, said:

Last night I found myself playing 7NT on a club lead, ducked to the K. We'd had a slight misunderstanding about partner's ideal followup to 4th suit forcing on this hand type, and he showed spade tolerance; when I found he had 3 keycards I thought I could count 13 tricks. Dummy came down; I won the opening lead in hand and led to the ♠K. RHO shows out; time to plan the play!

---

Agree Cyberyeti: you should have cashed ♥KQ first. Now, having not done that, I agree with MikeH. After cashing ♠K, cash ♦A, ♥QKA ...

• If ♣J drops in 3, then hope to squeeze LHO in the majors.
• If ♥J drops in 3, then hope to squeeze LHO in the blacks.

[cargobeep]

^ Example hands please where your play is superior.

[mikeh]

cargobeep, on 2013-August-30, 12:27, said:

^ Your line doesn't work. In fact, with the several lines I've tested double-dummy, you're either

1) screwed after playing the K♠ (the pitches are all extremely obvious, no way to make a mistake).

2) able to simply cash your high cards until either the J♣ or J♥ falls, which as far as I know, will on any makeable layout. This is likely since the 2D/3D preempt never happened. Some layouts do require a squeeze, but those are pretty well automatic on this hand

I think it's time to see the original hand.

Which line doesn't work?

if hearts are running, and we cash the diamond A early on, then we reduce, after the last heart, to 10 void void AQ10 opposite AQxx void x void. LHO, if with Jxx Jxx in the blacks, can't hold the position in one of the suits, and we just cash the clubs...either they are good (squeeze or J drops because it was always short) or the spades run after we have cashed AQ clubs.

[cargobeep]

^ Cashing the A♦ early on is as far as I know is useless. Give me a layout where it's superior or else shush.

Basically, this hand is autopilot. You either always fail or you always win.

[mikeh]

cargobeep, on 2013-August-30, 12:38, said:

^ Cashing the A♦ early on is as far as I know is useless. Give me a layout where it's superior or else shush.

Basically, this hand is autopilot. You either always fail or you always win.

You win trick 1 with the club K, and cash the spade K (I know, I wouldn't either) and then you run the hearts....you need 5 hearts to have a chance (edit, I am assuming clubs aren't giving us 5 tricks....if hearts don't come home, obviously we need clubs to do so and then we need lho to be major suit squeezed, but that is obvious and also requires the diamond cash early)

So: 7 tricks in, 6 left: you are in dummy with 10 void Q AQ10x and in hand hold AQxx void Ax void.

Say LHO has Jxxx Jxxx in the blacks to start with. You have reduced him, perforce, to Jxx Jxx.

If he also had the diamond K, he is already toast: to keep that, he's had to shorten a black suit and if he didn't then you cash the diamond Q for your 13th trick.

But say he lacks the diamond K.

Please spell out how you intend to cash 6 winners in this position: 10 void Q AQ10x opposite AQxx void Ax void?

Meanwhile, if you had cashed the diamond Ace earlier, you are in a 5 card ending, not a 6 card ending.

The cards you are missing from dummy and your hand are irrelevant: dummy's diamond Q and either a small diamond or a small spade from yours.

However, the rules require that West also come down to 5 cards, and I know of no current version of reality in which those 5 cards can include both Jxx in spades and Jxx in clubs.

Now, maybe I have missed something, but, if not, please reconsider telling me to shush

[cargobeep]

When I meant early on, I meant third trick, not halfway through the hand!

Yes, your play will work, but it's extremely obvious. And also highly unlikely, given that East would need to have passed a hand with 7+ diamonds AND a void.

[mikeh]

edited: removed invitation to flame war: cargobeep's posts speak for themselves

[Fluffy]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-August-30, 04:31, said:

Spoiler

How unless J is stiff ? you have no way back to dummy to cash 4 hearts

If LHO has ♥Jxxx, we make 4/5♣, 3♠, 3♥, 1♦ depending on clubs being 5-2 or 4-3. With 4-3 we can squeeze LHO in the majors, cashing ♥KQ early would had also worked. But if this is the case there is no need to cash the clubs early so cashing the clubs won't give any extra chance.


EDIT: There is a chance, RHO could have ♥Jxxx ♦KJ1098 ♣xxxx. he is squezzed on the run of the clubs and spades

[mgoetze]

cargobeep, on 2013-August-30, 12:38, said:

^ Cashing the A♦ early on is as far as I know is useless. Give me a layout where it's superior or else shush.

Basically, this hand is autopilot. You either always fail or you always win.

So cargobeep, are you trying to get as many forum members as possible to think you are an idiot or why else are you being so confrontative towards one of the best players on the forum?

[johnu]

CamHenry, on 2013-August-30, 02:30, said:

Last night I found myself playing 7NT on a club lead, ducked to the K. We'd had a slight misunderstanding about partner's ideal followup to 4th suit forcing on this hand type, and he showed spade tolerance; when I found he had 3 keycards I thought I could count 13 tricks. Dummy came down; I won the opening lead in hand and led to the ♠K. RHO shows out; time to plan the play!

As several posters have noted, the time to plan the play was at trick 1 so you could handle 4-1 hearts onside.