[aguahombre]

RSClyde, on 2013-August-31, 10:44, said:

By the way, does anyone else play double over the 1♠ response as responsive, showing 4+ diamonds and hearts? My partner and I do this to make sure that we end up in the right suit rather than trying to scramble into a suit partner has 4 of. The utility of playing the double as penalty seems low since virtually no one plays new suits on the 1 level as non-forcing.

No, but they do mess around with a new suit which ---on occasion---should be your trump suit. With hearts and Diamonds, we would probably bid one of those suits... unless Pard is one of those random doublers.

[FrancesHinden]

I wouldn't double on the West hand.
I agree with PhilKing (and some others), that I would bid neither hearts nor diamonds on the east hand, I would cue bid. Saying he bid 2H 'in case there is game in hearts' isn't very helpful if 2H ends the auction.

[PhilKing]

.

[RSClyde]

aguahombre, on 2013-August-31, 10:48, said:

No, but they do mess around with a new suit which ---on occasion---should be your trump suit. With hearts and Diamonds, we would probably bid one of those suits... unless Pard is one of those random doublers.

Yes they may, but, as long as 1♠ is forcing I can pass and then bid 2♠ or just bid it now. But I want to be in the right red suit, I mean I like Moysian fits, I even celebrate April 3rd as Moysean day, but not with a 4-4 side fit, partner doesn't need to have 4 of both of them.

It seems to me like the other way is what caters to off shape doubles: "Well I have spades and partner doubled but now RHO says that he has spades... I could just ignore him and bid 2♠ but maybe partner doesn't really have spades, I'll double just in case."

[jdeegan]

PhilKing, on 2013-August-31, 10:34, said:

It seems to me that a lot of people are missing the point about the East hand. You have play for game opposite:

♠xxxx
♥AQxx
♦xxxx
♣x

Just cue bid 2♣ and raise a red suit to game. If it gets competitive, back in with diamonds at whatever level you have reached. If you can't make it, then the oppo must be pretty close to a black suit game. If neither side can make anything, it's just a cold deck!

You make a good point, but au contraire, your example hand gives the opponents ten clubs. This auction is shaping up to be a competitive goat f*ck. Thus consider the merit of getting your ♦AKQ9xx altogether in play ASAP. You got one story to tell and quite possibly only one time to tell it. Just do it.

[PhilKing]

jdeegan, on 2013-September-01, 05:54, said:

You make a good point, but au contraire, your example hand gives the opponents ten clubs. This auction is shaping up to be a competitive goat f*ck. Thus consider the merit of getting your ♦AKQ9xx altogether in play ASAP. You got one story to tell and quite possibly only one time to tell it. Just do it.

Yes I have a story to tell, but it is War and Peace. I pretty much intend to keep bidding in most circumstances. I know they have a double fit unless pard has a strong non-shape double and 5♦ rates to have play if they bid 4♠/5♣. In some auctions I may be able to leave the decision to partner, or he may get to double 4♠ in front of me.

Bidding, say, 3♦ (I have no idea which inadequate number you had in mind) rates a Guthrie 7 out of 10.

Sometimes they can't compete that high. Say pard has KQxx KQxx xx Kxx. They are outgunned and just compete to 2♠. I reach a lousy 4♥ but make it on a friendly lie of the cards opposite 8 wasted points.

[dickiegera]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-August-31, 10:54, said:

I wouldn't double on the West hand.
I agree with PhilKing (and some others), that I would bid neither hearts nor diamonds on the east hand, I would cue bid. Saying he bid 2H 'in case there is game in hearts' isn't very helpful if 2H ends the auction.

Which suit would you cuebid?
West might believe you have spades if cuebid is 2♠ [exposing a possible psych] and
likewise if you cuebid 2♣ he may believe you have clubs

[cherdano]

dickiegera, on 2013-September-01, 15:35, said:

Which suit would you cuebid?
West might believe you have spades if cuebid is 2♠ [exposing a possible psych] and
likewise if you cuebid 2♣ he may believe you have clubs

2♣ is a cuebid here.

[VM1973]

mgoetze, on 2013-August-30, 17:33, said:

I can't speak for RSClyde specifically but I can assure you that those who "feel" that way are in a very small minority here.

You know it's very interesting because I've been thinking a lot about a hand mentioned by Fluffy on here. If I recall correctly the hand was something like ♠KQT9xx ♥K98xx ♦Jxx ♣-
and the auction went 1♠-P-2♣-DBL and it's your call. The majority opinion seemed to be that the hand shouldn't have been opened in the first place because it was too weak. I just don't get why everyone is tut-tutting the decision to open a shapely 9 (Wonk) count but everyone is gung-ho at the idea of making a TOD on a much less shapely 10 (Wonk) count as though an extra Jack in there somewhere makes a 4-4-4-1 hand better than a 5-5-3-0 hand. I freely confess that I just don't get it but perhaps you could shed more light on the subject rather than simply saying, "Well most people don't 'feel' that way."

[mgoetze]

VM1973, on 2013-September-01, 19:58, said:

I freely confess that I just don't get it but perhaps you could shed more light on the subject rather than simply saying, "Well most people don't 'feel' that way."

As others have been trying to explain to you, the specific shape (i.e. whether your shortness is in the suit bid by the opponents, and your relative length in the majors and of course whether you even have both majors) of your hand is very important when considering a takeout double, not just the general shape (thus, a 4441 with the singleton in opponent's suit is much more suitable than a 4441 with a singleton in an unbid major). I really don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

[gwnn]

(boldface mine)

VM1973, on 2013-September-01, 19:58, said:

(...)everyone is gung-ho at the idea of making a TOD on a much less shapely 10 (Wonk) count as though an extra Jack in there somewhere makes a 4-4-4-1 hand better than a 5-5-3-0 hand.

Maybe read the thread again? Count how many people liked and how many disliked the double?

[the hog]

I don't like the initial double. I would certainly cue bid and what is more, probably push to game on the East hand.

[monikrazy]

Double may be light but doesn't bother me as long as partner understands we will sometimes choose to compete light.

2H call seems very problematic. 3D, 4D, or even a responsive double all seem reasonable. W correcting to hearts also makes sense from the bidding imo.

Edit: RSClyde I missed your question about responsive doubles in your post. I use responsive doubles and agree that they can be extremely useful in this type of auction.

[mycroft]

I'm giving it a couple more years and then starting to psych my responses...
After it becomes an IPA, I'll work on the system that allows it (it's GCC legal - "defence to conventional calls"). We'll Alert it and let you figure out what a double means.