[Cyberyeti]

 fromageGB, on 2013-August-27, 04:05, said:

On the original point of minor suit stayman or 4 suit transfers, why not do both? I play 2♠ asking for 4 card minor, 2NT&3♣ as transfers to ♣&♦. Simple, and both are used weak or strong.

This works, the only drawback is that you lose the ability to show interest opposite a diamond transfer, what do you play 1N-3♦ as, if it shows the hand in the middle where you would accept the "show of interest" and try for 3N, that solves that, or do you have a more creative use ?

The only thing it stops you doing is playing 3♣ as another stayman type enquiry, and if you play 3♣ as an enquiry, you have lots of spare bids for the minor suit hands.

[fromageGB]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-August-27, 05:40, said:

This works, the only drawback is that you lose the ability to show interest opposite a diamond transfer, what do you play 1N-3♦ as, if it shows the hand in the middle where you would accept the "show of interest" and try for 3N, that solves that, or do you have a more creative use ?

No , nothing exciting, we play 3♦ as a simple "pick a major" with 55xx or longer.

The 3♣ transfer to diamonds is either weak, so opener will not transfer-break, or strong, in which case he will follow with a major shortage, or 3NT, or 4♥ ace ask if unilateral, or 4♦ cooperative ace ask in the Zelandakh style. We don't give opener the ability to "show interest and try for 3NT" because (a) responder can be very weak and (b) opener has only a 2 point range. (I don't like wide-ranging NTs.)

[Cyberyeti]

 fromageGB, on 2013-August-27, 06:01, said:

No , nothing exciting, we play 3♦ as a simple "pick a major" with 55xx or longer.

The 3♣ transfer to diamonds is either weak, so opener will not transfer-break, or strong, in which case he will follow with a major shortage, or 3NT, or 4♥ ace ask if unilateral, or 4♦ cooperative ace ask in the Zelandakh style. We don't give opener the ability to "show interest and try for 3NT" because (a) responder can be very weak and (b) opener has only a 2 point range. (I don't like wide-ranging NTs.)

What do you do with AQxxxx and a king opposite a weak NT, just choose to either punt 3N or play 3♦ ? The normal way with 4 suit transfers is to play 1N-2N(diamonds)-3♣ as showing interest with a fitting diamond card.

[fromageGB]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-August-27, 06:20, said:

What do you do with AQxxxx and a king opposite a weak NT, just choose to either punt 3N or play 3♦ ? The normal way with 4 suit transfers is to play 1N-2N(diamonds)-3♣ as showing interest with a fitting diamond card.

I play 15/16 NT, but if I was in that situation (or the equivalent for me of AQxxxx and a J) I would just transfer to diamonds. Yes, I agree with you that 2-under transfers have their uses, but at a cost of MSS. You can do the same in the majors (why not?) at a cost of Stayman. You always have to make a choice when there is a trade-off.

[32519]

Hand 3, this time 0/17 tables found the ♦ slam. Are your methods any better?

---

Without the benefit of double dummy, would you have found the ♦ slam?

[Cyberyeti]

 32519, on 2013-August-27, 09:45, said:

Hand 3, this time 0/17 tables found the ♦ slam. Are your methods any better?

Without the benefit of double dummy, would you have found the ♦ slam?

No, because it not a great slam. You have a heart loser that's unlikely to go anywhere and a potential trump loser, if you ruff both losing spades then you can't pick up ♦Kxx onside.

I'm not sure I can take the 500 out of 2♠x either, so 3N+1 looks most likely 1♦-(2♠)-X-P-3N.

[Lovera]

 awm, on 2013-August-24, 10:31, said:

There's not necessarily a simple answer to this, in that it depends on your methods and exactly what the issue is. However, I'll point out a few problems that are common among intermediates:

1. Visualize the possibility of slam. For example: ♠AKxx ♥Axx ♦Ax ♣xxxx; partner opens 1♣ and we bid 1♣-1♠-2♣. I have fifteen high opposite something like 11-15 and all suits stopped. But I should be in no rush to bid 3NT! With such prime cards and a ten-card club fit, we could easily make a slam (give partner ♠x ♥Kxx ♦xxx ♣AKxxxx and slam is excellent, and this isn't even a max). Make sure you have a way to make a forcing club raise in this auction and use it!

2. Bid your minors. People fall in love with opening or rebidding notrump on off-shape hands like 2245 or 2326. Sometimes this is the right action of course, but you really need a hand that would be a "problem hand" otherwise. For example: ♠xx ♥Ax ♦AKJx ♣AQxxx, I open 1♣ and partner responds 1♠. I could rebid 2NT now, but my hand is prime and values are concentrated in the minors. Much better to reverse into 2♦ and see how the auction develops. Partner could have a hand like ♠AKxx ♥xxx ♦QTxx ♣xx where slam is basically on a finesse (and 3NT is on the same finesse) or even ♠Axxx ♥xx ♦Qxxx ♣Kxx and we will never reach slam after a 2NT rebid. As another example, ♠xx ♥Axx ♦AKJTxx ♣Ax; occasionally you see people open 1NT on this, or bid 1♦-1♠-2NT (which is a more accurate strength evaluation). But this is a perfectly good 1♦...3♦ hand and bidding in either of these ways could easily miss 6♦. Another example is ♠KQxxx ♥x ♦AJxx ♣xxx; partner opens 1NT and I transfer to spades. Too often people now rebid 3NT "choice of games" but 3♦ (or a second transfer bid showing spades and diamonds) is much better. Partner could hold ♠Ax ♥xxx ♦KQxxx ♣AKx and 6♦ is excellent, but we will never get there after transfer and 3NT. Of course it is still sometimes right to bid notrump off-shape; the trick is to look for hands with slow/positional cards and weaker suits, for example ♠Qx ♥AQ ♦KQxx ♣AJxxx and it's clear to open 1♣ and rebid 2NT over 1♠.

3. Show your shortness. Again a good example is ♠KQxxx ♥x ♦AJxx ♣xxx opposite a 1NT opening. Note that this can get you to better game contracts as well as slams (give partner ♠xx ♥Qxx ♦KQxx ♣AKQx and there is no slam, but we'd rather play 5♦ than 3NT even at MP). Another example is ♠Kxx ♥x ♦AQxx ♣KJxxx after a 1♣ opening. Some will start with 2♣ inverted and then bid 3NT after partner shows a heart control, or even start with 1♦ and then blast 3NT after partner rebids 1♥. But slam is easily possible if partner's heart holding is Axx(x) and by far the best approach is a direct splinter in hearts. Make sure you have a way to show splinters in support of partner's minor! Another example is ♠Axxx ♥KQxx ♦x ♣Kxxx after partner opens a strong 1NT. Often people will bid stayman, then 3NT when partner shows no four-card major. But partner could have ♠Kx ♥Axx ♦Qxx ♣AQxxx and 6♣ is excellent despite the "wasted" diamond card. Make sure you have methods to show these sorts of hands!

(Again a good example is ♠KQxxx ♥x ♦AJxx ♣xxx opposite a 1NT opening. Note that this can get you to better game contracts as well as slams (give partner ♠xx ♥Qxx ♦KQxx ♣AKQx and there is no slam, but we'd rather play 5♦ than 3NT even at MP.=) At this propose was invented by Stayman a convenction to realize fit in minor suit not excluding to play 3NT if conditions were. The convenction starts with 2♦ asking for sure stopper(s) in major suits and with both ones bidding 2NT (otherwise indicating stopper i.e. 2♥ stopper in heart but not in spade). In this case bidding could be : 1NT - 2♦, 3♣ - 3♦, 5♦ all pass. For ultherior indications see in "Find my content" either "- 1080 don't.." or "Stayman".

[1eyedjack]

On the original point of minor suit stayman v 4 suit transfers, I think that the question is a bit blinkered. The main distinction in principle between the methods is that with minor suit stayman responder is captain and opener describes, while with 4 suit transfers it is responder who describes and opener who captains. There are several mechanisms available that start with the premise that responder is captain, of which minor suit stayman is just one. There are several mechanisms available that start with the premise that responder describes and opener is captain, of which 4-suit transfers is just one.

I suggest that your first priority should be to decide who is to captain, and under what circumstances. Having decided that, it is only then that you ask yourself which method best serves that principle. This exercise may expand your horizons beyond minor suit stayman or 4 suit transfers.

For what it is worth, my opinion is that if responder is (semi-)balanced, then responder should captain (with slam going values).

If responder is shapely, then he should show his shape and let opener captain. That may be anathema to some after opener has already shown a limited opener with a balanced hand.

[Lovera]

 Lovera, on 2015-January-02, 12:27, said:

(Again a good example is ♠KQxxx ♥x ♦AJxx ♣xxx opposite a 1NT opening. Note that this can get you to better game contracts as well as slams (give partner ♠xx ♥Qxx ♦KQxx ♣AKQx and there is no slam, but we'd rather play 5♦ than 3NT even at MP.=) At this propose was invented by Stayman a convenction to realize fit in minor suit not excluding to play 3NT if conditions were. The convenction starts with 2♦ asking for sure stopper(s) in major suits and with both ones bidding 2NT (otherwise indicating stopper i.e. 2♥ stopper in heart but not in spade). In this case bidding could be : 1NT - 2♦, 3♣ - 3♦, 5♦ all pass. For ultherior indications see in "Find my content" either "- 1080 don't.." or "Stayman".

I will restart this point because i am of the idea to cross transfert with 2♦ Stayman for minor suit contract in this way: 1NT(=15-17)-2♦ only ambigous meaning transfert for heart (when weak) or Stayman for minor suit contract (not weak) whilest the other transfert for spade and minor are the usual transfert meaning.Partner considers 2♦ as minor signaling controlls as already said than 2♥=sure stopper in heart. If 2♦ bidder doesn't want search for a minor stop bidding with 3♥ to pass as in classical Stayman with 2♣ followed by 3♣. Are you agree ?