[Antrax]

I'm seriously considering emigration. When talking with a friend he half-jokingly warned me that I'll move to a new country only to find a new set of issues to complain about.
This seems like a multinational enough place, so what really bugs you about where you live? I'd start but it would turn this into an Israel discussion and I'd rather avoid that particular angle for now.
Thanks!

[mike777]

So few from the USA emigrate.

Most who do retain citizenship.

I would guess the reasons are:
1) they are rich
2) They are well off if not rich and miss their homeland, family, culture.

In any event if you are thinking of coming to USA, we welcome you with open arms.
Yes, here you will find a lot to complain about and we hope you will make this a better place for all and welcome.

[Antrax]

Not the USA. First of all, the USA is too picky. Canada and Australia, for instance, are willing to take us yesterday. With the US, it's a long, drawn-out process. Also, there's a time zone issue - I'd like to be only a couple of hours away from my family, if possible.
We're looking at Germany for the destination. Still no clue near which major city.

[mike777]

Antrax, on 2013-August-16, 22:20, said:

Not the USA. First of all, the USA is too picky. Canada and Australia, for instance, are willing to take us yesterday. With the US, it's a long, drawn-out process. Also, there's a time zone issue - I'd like to be only a couple of hours away from my family, if possible.
We're looking at Germany for the destination. Still no clue near which major city.

Rats if Germany makes it easier to move to than USA, not good.
We need people such as yourself in USA.

[Antrax]

I'm flattered. But you're right the criteria for US immigration make it seem as though they're just swamped with young couples with ~20 academic years between them.
With Germany I'm cheating because I have a EU citizenship. No clue how strict the immigration policy there is.

[mike777]

Antrax, on 2013-August-16, 23:30, said:

I'm flattered. But you're right the criteria for US immigration make it seem as though they're just swamped with young couples with ~20 academic years between them.
With Germany I'm cheating because I have a EU citizenship. No clue how strict the immigration policy there is.

Ok small but very important point. Free labor movement means more, much more than just being able to go live in Germany. pEOPLE forget this, often. Western Europe compared to the USA does NOT have free labor movement, it does have a bigger safety net for those who don't work. It tends to have stronger job protection for older workers, not you. Eastern Europe may have less restrictions and smaller net.

Of course even in USA you can cite places that have restricted labor movement. See Detroit.

[Trinidad]

Well, Germany would be on the bottom of my list. (I currently work in Germany.)

Furthermore, you need to realize that working and living abroad comes at a cost: You don't know the local customs, you don't know how things work, you don't know whether a rule is a rule (Germany) or just a guideline (The Netherlands).

Simple example: You go and buy a car. How much should you pay for it? You don't know, you pay too much. Living abroad is expensive.

In addition, you do realize that basically you need to have a job before you move to another EU country? You can move to a country without a job and stay there for 3 months to look for one, but application procedures in most countries take at least half a year, so you will be out before you get to hear that you got the job.

Last but not least: Complaining about what is wrong with your own country is a very bad reason to look for another one. The other countries aren't perfect either.

To answer your question: The best country that I have lived in was Sweden.

Rik

[mike777]

Trinidad, on 2013-August-17, 01:29, said:

Well, Germany would be on the bottom of my list. (I currently work in Germany.)

Furthermore, you need to realize that working and living abroad comes at a cost: You don't know the local customs, you don't know how things work, you don't know whether a rule is a rule (Germany) or just a guideline (The Netherlands).

Simple example: You go and buy a car. How much should you pay for it? You don't know, you pay too much. Living abroad is expensive.

In addition, you do realize that basically you need to have a job before you move to another EU country? You can move to a country without a job and stay there for 3 months to look for one, but application procedures in most countries take at least half a year, so you will be out before you get to hear that you got the job.

Last but not least: Complaining about what is wrong with your own country is a very bad reason to look for another one. The other countries aren't perfect either.

To answer your question: The best country that I have lived in was Sweden.

Rik

fwiw paying for a car should be the easy decision you ever make.....in Germany.
The entire, 100% point of the Euro. is to make this easy. Other points are important.

If buying a car in Germany is tough then the Euro has failed 100%.

with that said Trin makes important other points.

Would love to hear about the bad points about living in Sweden as I am Swedish heritage.

fwiw I would think complaining about your own country is an excellent reason to leave... I mean if you don't complain why leave.....now just where is another question.

[Trinidad]

To clarify: The price on the car is 19 990 (in whatever currency unit). How much money do you need to pay to get the car?

While I was living in the USA, a Japanese colleague needed a car. He went to the local car dealer, found a car that he liked. He saw the sticker price, went to the bank, got the money and paid the sticker price - in cash. I think it is safe to say that he paid about 20% too much. He didn't know that you needed to negotiate.

A few months later, I went to the mall with a friend from India. We went to a men's cloth store and he saw a shirt he liked. He took it up to the cashier and asked what it would cost. The reply: "It's on the price tag." "Yes, but how much do you want to take off the price." He didn't know that you were not supposed to negotiate there.

This is complicated stuff and not knowing costs money. I am sure that I have paid more than I should have.

Other costs: Foreigners sometimes pay more tax.

Rik

[Aberlour10]

Antrax, on 2013-August-16, 23:30, said:

With Germany I'm cheating because I have a EU citizenship. No clue how strict the immigration policy there is.

If you have it, there are absolutely any problems to move in, to stay, to work, etc....search for : Free Movement Law in Germany ( EU Citiziens)

[Cyberyeti]

Trinidad, on 2013-August-17, 01:29, said:

In addition, you do realize that basically you need to have a job before you move to another EU country? You can move to a country without a job and stay there for 3 months to look for one, but application procedures in most countries take at least half a year, so you will be out before you get to hear that you got the job.

Rik

Not true at all if you have EU citizenship, hence the prioblem the UK has with benefit tourists from some of the new EU states.

[Trinidad]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-August-17, 03:05, said:

Not true at all if you have EU citizenship, hence the prioblem the UK has with benefit tourists from some of the new EU states.

You may be right. Do you know when this changed? (I know that in 1997 this was definitely not the case.)

Rik

[Trinidad]

To answer the question: "What don't you like about your country?"

The unfriendliness to foreigners.

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

Trinidad, on 2013-August-17, 03:34, said:

You may be right. Do you know when this changed? (I know that in 1997 this was definitely not the case.)

Rik

It's a fundamental right in the 1993 Maastricht treaty although I believe several countries took some years to implement it and there are transitional arrangements for new members.

Quote

Article 21 Freedom to move and reside

Article 21 (1) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union[14] states that

Every citizen of the Union shall have the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in this Treaty and by the measures adopted to give it effect.

The European Court of Justice has remarked that,

EU Citizenship is destined to be the fundamental status of nationals of the Member States[17]

The ECJ has held that this Article confers a directly effective right upon citizens to reside in another Member State.[17][18] Before the case of Baumbast,[18] it was widely assumed that non-economically active citizens had no rights to residence deriving directly from the EU Treaty, only from directives created under the Treaty. In Baumbast, however, the ECJ held that (the then[19]) Article 18 of the EC Treaty granted a generally applicable right to residency, which is limited by secondary legislation, but only where that secondary legislation is proportionate.[20] Member States can distinguish between nationals and Union citizens but only if the provisions satisfy the test of proportionality.[21] Migrant EU citizens have a "legitimate expectation of a limited degree of financial solidarity... having regard to their degree of integration into the host society"[22] Length of time is a particularly important factor when considering the degree of integration.

The ECJ's case law on citizenship has been criticised for subjecting an increasing number of national rules to the proportionality assessment.[21]

from http://en.wikipedia...._European_Union

My guess is that in '97 there were still cases going through on the proportionality point.

[Trinidad]

Very interesting..

Thanks for the info!

Rik

[hrothgar]

mike777, on 2013-August-17, 00:47, said:

Ok small but very important point. Free labor movement means more, much more than just being able to go live in Germany. pEOPLE forget this, often. Western Europe compared to the USA does NOT have free labor movement, it does have a bigger safety net for those who don't work. It tends to have stronger job protection for older workers, not you. Eastern Europe may have less restrictions and smaller net.

When you characterize the US, are you talking about moving between US states or moving here from a foreign country?

There are some restrictions on labor mobility wrt Bulgaria, Croatia, and Romania, but for the most part very free movement of labor within the EU.
(The restrictions in question are primarily a function of the recent date at which these countries joined the EU)

[blackshoe]

mike777, on 2013-August-16, 22:13, said:

So few from the USA emigrate.

Most who do retain citizenship.

I would guess the reasons are:
1) they are rich
2) They are well off if not rich and miss their homeland, family, culture.

In any event if you are thinking of coming to USA, we welcome you with open arms.
Yes, here you will find a lot to complain about and we hope you will make this a better place for all and welcome.

An awful lot of rich folks, immigrants or not, are renouncing their US citizenship and going elsewhere. The reason I've seen is high taxes, and I'm sure that's a factor, but I bet there are others - such as that there is more intervention in the market than there used to be. Simply put, it seems the downside of living in the US is beginning to outweigh the upside, at least for the rich.

The Heritage Foundation maintains an "Economic Freedom Index", if that's important to you. According to that, the top five places to live in the world are Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, and Switzerland. Canada is sixth, the US is tenth. The top five are rated "free", six through 35 "mostly free". Israel is #51, right behind Mexico. I don't know about immigration policy in these places, though I've heard that Australia and New Zealand are tough.

[awm]

Although I haven't seen hard statistics on it, I doubt the number of wealthy Americans disavowing citizenship is very high. US effective taxes (not statutory rates, necessarily) are still lower than most other places. Also, getting rid of US citizenship is hard to do and can make it difficult to return "to visit." Certainly there are cases of Americans who are already living overseas and are basically getting doubly taxed (i.e. they pay taxes in both their country of residence and the US) where changing citizenship is advantageous. There were some statistics where New Jersey raised the already-high state taxes on the wealthy and basically no one moved out of state (and moving states is much easier than switching country of citizenship).

What bothers me about America is slightly different. I do pay a lot in taxes. However, if this tax money were being spent to improve the quality of our infrastructure, help poor kids get an education, treat the mentally ill and keep them off the streets, and so forth it would not bother me so much. The issue is that I feel like my tax money is being spent to subsidize enormously profitable corporations, to line the pockets of some not-so-ethical business people and politicians, to keep young people in jail for mostly race-related reasons, and to kill innocent civilians in foreign lands. Meanwhile our infrastructure is lousy, poor kids have trouble getting food to eat (not to mention an education), and I see homeless people begging on the streets every time I walk through a major city. Not to mention we have an enormous deficit (although it's shrunk quite a bit since Bush's last year in office). I just don't feel like the money I pay in taxes (at an effective tax rate higher than Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, or virtually any major corporation) is being well-spent.

Having said this, most other countries seem to have similar things going on at some level (graft, austerity, dumb political arguments, race-relations issues, etc). The US has advantages in that my friends and family are here, I've got a good job here, I'm a native speaker of the most common language in the country, I know how to get around and do various things. We also have freedom of speech and religion in ways that most countries do not (for example, many European countries have a state-sponsored religion even now).

[Trinidad]

hrothgar, on 2013-August-17, 07:10, said:

When you characterize the US, are you talking about moving between US states or moving here from a foreign country?

There are some restrictions on labor mobility wrt Bulgaria, Croatia, and Romania, but for the most part very free movement of labor within the EU.
(The restrictions in question are primarily a function of the recent date at which these countries joined the EU)

Mike is right. Free labor movement in the USA is free labor movement. If you live in Vermont and find a job in LA, it is a matter of packing up your stuff, organizing the move and go.

Just a short list of some of the things you encounter when moving from one EU country to another. You will:

- need to learn a new language
- adjust to a new culture
- get into a new, completely different tax system
- get into a new, completely different social security system
- get into a new, completely different health care system
- give up part of your pension rights
- need to make sure that one of the parents is home for the children (child care is practically free in Sweden, expensive in The Netherlands. We now pay more for 3 hours per week in The Netherlands than we paid for 40 hours a week in Sweden.)
- give up your right to vote (you would be allowed to vote for national elections in your country of citizenship, but who cares? And you can basically only vote at the consulate.)
- get into a new system of government payments (you are eligible to get money for having children, being a low income renter, if you have a chronic disease, income dependent help with health insurance). Obviously different countries have different ideas of who needs to be helped to repair something in income.
- have to import your car. There are no import fees, but it needs to be tested ($) and you need to pay the environmental fee again. (When you buy a new car, you have to pay a fee for getting it demolished at the end of its life time. When you import a car, you will have to pay this fee in the new country, but -obviously- you don't get your original fee back.) Of course, you will need to pay a registration fee.
- lose all or part of your nice damage free years on your car insurance and need to pay a higher premium

Things get complicated (and costly!) when you live in one country and work in another. We live in The Netherlands, where my wife works. I work in Germany. Because I don't have a family living in Germany I am taxed as if I live single, the highest tax rate. (Nevertheless, the German tax office wants to know what my wife earns.) I don't think this problem exists when you work in Massachusetts, your wife works in Connecticut and you live in Rhode Island.

When it comes to language and culture, there is not much that politics could do about that. (At least I don't want politics to do anything about that: Let the Dutch speak Dutch and eat sandwiches for lunch and let the Germans speak German and have warm lunches.) But when it comes to social security, taxation, benefits, health insurance, other insurances, pensions, etc. I don't see why that couldn't be harmonized (other than that every country is convinced that their system is the only right one).

Rik

[Trinidad]

blackshoe, on 2013-August-17, 08:35, said:

An awful lot of rich folks, immigrants or not, are renouncing their US citizenship and going elsewhere. The reason I've seen is high taxes, and I'm sure that's a factor, but I bet there are others - such as that there is more intervention in the market than there used to be.

So, because taxes are increased and the free market is limited, the people who would like low taxes and a free market will decide to move to a country where taxes are higher and the market is less free?!?

The USA is the developed country with the lowest tax rates for the wealthy where the economy is most governed by the free market. (Americans might wonder: "What else could govern the economy but the free market?") The wealthy may complain, but leaving the USA? NO WAY!! Where would they go?

Rik