[32519]

So you are playing 2/1. Partner opens 1♥ and you hold -
1. Exactly 4♠
2. 12+ HCP

What takes preference? Do you -
1. Show the 4-card ♠ suit first, or
2. Do you immediately initiate a 2/1 GF sequence?

[CamHenry]

32519, on 2013-August-15, 02:26, said:

So you are playing 2/1. Partner opens 1♥ and you hold -
1. Exactly 4♠
2. 12+ HCP

What takes preference? Do you -
1. Show the 4-card ♠ suit first, or
2. Do you immediately initiate a 2/1 GF sequence?

3. It depends on the hand type. If I have AKxx/xx/AQx/xxxx, my options would be 1♠ or 2♣; I much prefer 1♠ on this. Alternatively, if I have Axxx/xx/xx/AKQxx, I respond 2♣ - I'll still be able to show my spade suit. If I have something with some support, e.g. Axxx/Kxx/Axxx/Kx, I consider a fit jump at least plausible (assuming I'm playing them and they don't promise 4+ cards).

[the hog]

Depends on the rest of the hand. Do I have 5 clubs for example?

[rhm]

I understand your question that

a) you have no great 5 card suit. If you do you must be a MAFIA (majors always first) proponent to consider 1♠.
b) you want to force to game.
c) slam looks possible
d) you have a reasonable minor suit, maybe 4 cards in length or bidding 2♣ would not necessarily imply a suit.

Under those conditions an immediate 2/1 bid is very much preferable in my opinion.

Holding a strong hand, if the bidding starts 1♥--1♠--2♦ is a known problem sequence baring special agreements.
There was a long discussion on bridgewinner some time ago and a majority said it is preferable and much simpler starting with an immediate game force, especially if your alternative is 2♣.
I can't find it but some others are

http://bridgewinners...ubs-or-1-spade/

http://bridgewinners...1h-1s-auctions/

Rainer Herrmann

[billw55]

My guess is

Spoiler

This thread is heading for the f-word

Spoiler

(flannery)

[32519]

billw55, on 2013-August-15, 06:59, said:

My guess is

Spoiler

This thread is heading for the f-word

Spoiler

(flannery)

This has got nothing to do with Flannery. I don’t play Flannery and have never played Flannery. But I do play 2/1, and this has got everything to do with what I consider to be a weakness/hole/flaw in the 2/1 system which needs proper partnership agreements to address, something which I don’t have.

But now that you have put Flannery on the table, let us look at the auction from opener’s point of view. The auction proceeds –
1♥-2m
2♠-?

A 2/1 GF auction has been initiated. So is 2♠ –
1. Patterning out, or
2. A reverse bid promising extras, or
3. Both 1 & 2?

Similarly, we can look at the auction from responder’s point of view. The auction proceeds –
1♥-2♣
2♦-2♠

Again, a 2/1 GF auction has been initiated. So is 2♠ –
1. Patterning out, or
2. A reverse bid promising extras, or
3. Both 1 & 2?

If it is 1, is responder showing 5♣ and 4♠, or can it be 4♣ and 4♠?

The thread was started to find out what others do/recommend in this situation. What are your partnership agreements?

[aguahombre]

2/1 can be played many different ways. Some partnership choices in answering the questions you ask create flaws that the system doesn't have to have.

For us, most 12's are not considered in the g.f. box. So our answers would be different with 4-5 in spades and a minor if we had 12 vs what we consider a game forcing response.

We choose not to artificially create a game force with 4 spades and no longer suit, and don't believe the concept of a "reverse" showing extras by either player is necessary when a game force has already been established (exception: the 3-level "high reverse"). So, we are pattern people.

Those who use the nebulous 2C response to 1M with balanced hands containing 4 spades fall into two camps as well: those who have thoroughly discussed all the continuations and adjustments necessary, and those who will eventually tire of bad results and convert.

BTW --Choosing Flannery might be one of those necessary adjustments.

[Free]

With exactly 4♠ I prefer to start with 2♣ (relay, after which opener immediately shows if he has 4♠ or not), with 5+♠ I'd rather start with 1♠ (finding and setting a 5-3 ♠ fit is more difficult using these relays).

Edit: just realized this is the natural forum. Many play 2♣ as a GF hand which can be balanced (so 2+♣) with the rest of the system natural. If there's an easy way to find out about 4-4 ♠ fits I'd start with 2♣, otherwise I'd prefer 1♠.

[32519]

Proper agreements should be able to address these sorts of system issues. So, how about this?

Once a 2/1 GF auction has been initiated, then –
1. Reverse bids which promise extras are off,
2. Replaced with the agreement for both partners to bid out their hand pattern up to 3NT while looking for a fit,
3. Hopefully by then they have found and agreed on where to play, whether it be
....a. A 5-3 fit in opener’s major
....b. A 4-4 fit in the other major
....c. A 5-3 fit in the other major with responder not excluded
....d. In 3NT with no fit
....e. A minor suit fit not excluded
4. Once a suit fit is found, Serious/Non-Serious 3NT kicks in to show/deny extras, replacing reverse bids/jump bids to show extras
5. With neither partner having extras, after Serious/Non-Serious 3NT, the final contract gets placed

Can this work? If not, then please make a suggestion that can work.

[Free]

1 & 2. I really don't like this, except perhaps with 5+♥ and 4♠. If you have to start with 1♥-2♦-3♣ it really sucks.
3. I'd prefer a 4-4 fit in the other Major over a 5-3 fit in opener's Major. The challenge is to be able to set any Major at 3-level, and any minor at 4-level or lower.
4. The range 12-19(20/21) is too big to handle with just serious/frivolous 3NT. You can have an offensive minimum which doesn't want to exclude slam, but you can also have a 'poor' maximum. I prefer to split the range right away in 12-15 and 16-19(20/21), and use frivolous 3NT later to distinguish between good and bad hands in that range.
5. That's usually the case isn't it?

[the hog]

Numeric one, make sure that you include Weasel in your 2/1 version. It really helps to sort out your strength.

[awm]

Assuming you have 4♠, less than 4♥, no 5-card minor and at least game values:

It is generally best to respond 2♣ on these hands. This sets up an immediate game force and makes your subsequent auction a lot easier. If you respond 1♠, you may get a sequence like 1♥-1♠-2♦ or 1♥-1♠-2♥ where it's difficult to create a forcing sequence (you can bid 3♣, but this raises the level of the auction pretty high without conveying any useful information about your hand).

After 1♥-2m, opener's 2♠ rebid should not show extras. Justin had a great post about this earlier but the gist of it was that this allows responder to rebid 2NT and basically hear opener's entire pattern, whereas opener rebidding nebulous 2♥ doesn't allow you to resolve shape nearly so well. Note that high-reverse sequences like 1♥-2♦-3♣ do not have this cheap 2NT bid available and take up a lot of space, and thus it's best to keep those as showing extras.

Thus you find your spade fit when you have it via 1♥-2♣-2♠-3♠. Then you can use serious/non-serious 3NT (whichever is on your card) to distinguish extras or not and decide whether to bid slam. In the more likely case where opener rebids 1♥-2♣-2♦ or 1♥-2♣-2♥ you have an easy 2NT bid available (or 2♥/3♥ if you have a fit), which has the advantage of hiding your distribution a bit from the defense.

If opener raises your clubs, you will typically rebid 3NT (no fit) or 3♥ (heart fit) next when not holding a 4+♣ suit. Opener should know that a balanced hand is a possibility for the 2♣ initial response and should not push too hard in the club suit on a shapely minimum.

For those who really dislike responding 2♣ on these hands, there are some alternatives that make use of 2♠ as a forcing rebid (presumably weak one-suiters respond 2♠ right off) and/or an artificial 1NT rebid by opener.

[32519]

Thanks Adam.

I've been thinking about the Serious/Non-Serious suggestion in this thread and I have doubts if it will work in the following bidding sequence -
1♥-2♣
2♦-2♠
2NT-3♠
3NT

Repeating the ♠ suit shows 5. What does 3NT mean in this sequence? No suit has been agreed upon yet. Therefore -
1. Is it natural, and suggesting a place to play? This seems to be the most logical, suggesting a 5422 or 5431 distribution with opener, the singleton being ♠.
2. Where responder holds a 5431 distribution with 3♠, raising to 4♠ shows a fit and no extras.
3. How would opener show extras?

[mike777]

32519, on 2013-August-15, 02:26, said:

So you are playing 2/1. Partner opens 1♥ and you hold -
1. Exactly 4♠
2. 12+ HCP

What takes preference? Do you -
1. Show the 4-card ♠ suit first, or
2. Do you immediately initiate a 2/1 GF sequence?

given your parameters 1s 100%, wtp?

we are not given a longer suit or heart support, we don't even have a gf hand at this point.

[32519]

32519, on 2013-August-16, 23:18, said:

Thanks Adam.

I've been thinking about the Serious/Non-Serious suggestion in this thread and I have doubts if it will work in the following bidding sequence -
1♥-2♣
2♦-2♠
2NT-3♠
3NT

Repeating the ♠ suit shows 5. What does 3NT mean in this sequence? No suit has been agreed upon yet. Therefore -
1. Is it natural, and suggesting a place to play? This seems to be the most logical, suggesting a 5422 or 5431 distribution with opener, the singleton being ♠.
2. Where responder holds a 5431 distribution with 3♠, raising to 4♠ shows a fit and no extras.
3. How would opener show extras?

Still some more pondering on this sequence -
All is not yet lost regarding the "showing of extras" -
From Opener's Point of View
1. With no extras and 2 or less ♠, 3NT suggests a place to play.
2. With 3♠ support and no extras, 4♠ is a no-brainer attempted signoff.
3. With 3♠ support and extras, 4NT becomes RKCB for ♠ (last suit bid being the agreed suit)
From Responder's Point of View
1. After 3NT as an attempted signoff, 4NT as Quantitative inviting 6NT with 15 HCP or a very good 14 HCP (plenty of 10s and 9s).
2. After the raise to 4♠, 4NT as RKCB (the singleton in opener's hand fitting in well with responder's hand)

[Zelandakh]

32519, on 2013-August-15, 02:26, said:

What takes preference? Do you -
1. Show the 4-card ♠ suit first, or
2. Do you immediately initiate a 2/1 GF sequence?

Traditionally, if you have both black suits you bid 2♣ with longer clubs than spades and bid 1♠ with 4-4. On BBF, there are many who prefer to establish an immediate GF (2♣) with 4-4 blacks. Indeed there are some who prefer to bid 2♣ even with 4 spades and shorter clubs.

There is an alternative that allows you to sidestep this issue completely. Respond 1♠ with any non-GF (as per forcing 1NT) and 1NT becomes a GF with 4+ spades. There are certain knock-on effects from this but if you are willing to give up on stopping in 1NT it is an easy way of avoiding several issues with the 1♥ opening. An additional bonus for Gazilli users is that you can play an unmodified structure for both major suit openers.

32519, on 2013-August-15, 10:57, said:

But now that you have put Flannery on the table, let us look at the auction from opener’s point of view. The auction proceeds –
1♥-2m
2♠-?

It is most common to play that 2♠ is simply shape-showing and does not promise extras. That said, the method where it shows extras is also perfectly playable and has many adherents.

32519, on 2013-August-15, 10:57, said:

Similarly, we can look at the auction from responder’s point of view. The auction proceeds –
1♥-2♣
2♦-2♠

Again, this typically just shows shape. If you play the traditional way then it also shows longer clubs. If one of the alternative given above is in effect then it might have 4 (or fewer) clubs. Note that it is also possible to play this 2♠ bid as artificial if you want and just bid 2NT with 4 spades. I would not recommend doing it undiscussed though, particular with an American partner.

32519, on 2013-August-15, 23:18, said:

Can this work? If not, then please make a suggestion that can work.

I always give the same link for players wanting to learn 2/1, taken from Bridge with Dan. It is short and does not deal with special calls such as picture bids but is also very clear and lays out the basics well.