[Cyberyeti]

I'm sure we've all seen both these things happen, but not on the same board.

1. You are about to make a stop bid, you pull a pass instead of a stop then follow up with your bid, no damage normally done, "stop bid" accepted auction moves on, director rarely called.

2. Your RHO makes the 3rd pass at the start of the auction and you in 4th seat rapidly expose your hand saying that you're passing this out.

Now what happens when both these things happen on the same board, ie 3rd hand pulls a pass (and places it on the table with apparent intent not realising that's what it is) and before he can pull the second part of the bid out, 4th hand exposes his hand ?

Edit: does it make any difference if the green stop card is in 4th seat and the other side then both expose their hands.

[blackshoe]

Option one: In both cases, there having been four passes, the board is scored as having been passed out.
Option two: apply Law 25A, allow the "green stop card" to be replaced with a different call. If you do this, apply Law 24 to the exposed cards, so they must be left on the table until the auction period ends, there is unauthorized information for the side with exposed cards, and if the players with exposed cards become defenders, those cards become penalty cards. One or both players respectively whose partner has exposed cards must pass at his next turn. So in the first case, 3rd seat changes his call, 4th seat makes any call, next player calls, 4th seat's partner must pass. In the second case, 4th seat changes his call, both opposing players must pass, so if 4th seat's partner passes, the auction will be over. Law 23 may apply, in which case the TD will adjust the score.

Option one is easier, but option two is the way to go, provided of course that the player involved "does so (ie, changes his call) or attempts to do so, without pause for thought". I would be pretty strict about that, I think.

[ArtK78]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-August-16, 05:28, said:

I'm sure we've all seen both these things happen, but not on the same board.

1. You are about to make a stop bid, you pull a pass instead of a stop then follow up with your bid.

Never seen this. Has anyone else?

[iviehoff]

ArtK78, on 2013-August-16, 07:21, said:

Never seen this. Has anyone else?

Lots of times. I've seen the pass card being used to alert partner's call, and the double card being used for these things also.

[iviehoff]

blackshoe, on 2013-August-16, 07:14, said:

Option one is easier, but option two is the way to go, provided of course that the player involved "does so (ie, changes his call) or attempts to do so, without pause for thought". I would be pretty strict about that, I think.

I agree that option 2 is the way to go, and I wouldn't be looking very hard to find a loophole to prevent it. After all 3rd player had an unconscious mishap but 4th player acted consciously, and I am happy to discourage several of his conscious actions. He should not have taken action with undue haste. He should have made a proper pass and made sure everyone was conscious of it and realising it was the end of the auction, and then done the end of hand admin before doing anything else. And to the extent that post mortems are not to be encouraged, and I can't think of any other reason for exposing your hand like that, I'm be happy to discourage that habit too.

[Cyberyeti]

iviehoff, on 2013-August-16, 07:37, said:

I agree that option 2 is the way to go, and I wouldn't be looking very hard to find a loophole to prevent it. After all 3rd player had an unconscious mishap but 4th player acted consciously, and I am happy to discourage several of his conscious actions. He should not have taken action with undue haste. He should have made a proper pass and made sure everyone was conscious of it and realising it was the end of the auction, and then done the end of hand admin before doing anything else. And to the extent that post mortems are not to be encouraged, and I can't think of any other reason for exposing your hand like that, I'm be happy to discourage that habit too.

Does it make a difference here if it's not in undue haste ? Quite frequently people decide they're going to jump, pull the stop card then don't pull the second card immediately.

I played in a swiss teams two weekends ago. In the first round there were 2 passouts, both were chartacterised by the 4th player (different sides) tabling their hands and all 4 players indicating how many points they had, this is very normal behaviour particularly over here.

[pran]

iviehoff, on 2013-August-16, 07:37, said:

I agree that option 2 is the way to go, and I wouldn't be looking very hard to find a loophole to prevent it. After all 3rd player had an unconscious mishap but 4th player acted consciously, and I am happy to discourage several of his conscious actions. He should not have taken action with undue haste. He should have made a proper pass and made sure everyone was conscious of it and realising it was the end of the auction, and then done the end of hand admin before doing anything else. And to the extent that post mortems are not to be encouraged, and I can't think of any other reason for exposing your hand like that, I'm be happy to discourage that habit too.

Is nobody here aware of

Law 25A4 said:

If a substitution is allowed the LHO may withdraw any call he made over the first call. Information from the withdrawn call is authorized only to his side. There is no further rectification.

or do you simply not bother to worry about it?

4th player has legally passed out the board and thereafter exposed his hand. Is there any irregularity in this? He certainly did not expose any card during the auction.

[gnasher]

ArtK78, on 2013-August-16, 07:21, said:

Never seen this. Has anyone else?

You're less likely to see it in the ACBL than elsewhere, because in the ACBL people often don't bother to use the Stop card.

[barmar]

ArtK78, on 2013-August-16, 07:21, said:

Never seen this. Has anyone else?

I haven't, but someone posted something similar as a comment in today's Secretary Bird column at BW. In this case it was 4th chair who mistakenly pulled the pass card, everyone else started showing their hands, while he put the 2♣ bid on the table.

[blackshoe]

iviehoff, on 2013-August-16, 07:37, said:

I wouldn't be looking very hard to find a loophole to prevent it.

I would not be looking for loopholes either. I would be applying the law.

[Siegmund]

I can confirm I have never seen #1 (and reasonably rarely seen #2 - there is almost always either a 4th pass card, or a few seconds of conversation before cards get faced.) Doubles used in place of stop cards, yes - but that brings the auction to a halt anyway. (in this auction -- it does get interesting if there has been a double-able call, and the auction continues before the skipbid emerges.) Never pass cards.

If it did happen... I tend to put more blame on third hand than on fourth, but you can find both of them to be offending sides.

[RSliwinski]

pran, on 2013-August-16, 07:49, said:

4th player has legally passed out the board and thereafter exposed his hand. Is there any irregularity in this? He certainly did not expose any card during the auction.

No he did not, but law 24 is about exposed cards during the auction period and indeed he did exposed his cards during the auction period (se law 22 B2).

[pran]

RSliwinski, on 2013-August-18, 15:13, said:

No he did not, but law 24 is about exposed cards during the auction period and indeed he did exposed his cards during the auction period (se law 22 B2).

Quite.
I stand corrected.

[iviehoff]

pran, on 2013-August-16, 07:49, said:

Is nobody here aware of

Quote

If a substitution is allowed the LHO may withdraw any call he made over the first call. Information from the withdrawn call is authorized only to his side. There is no further rectification.

4th player has legally passed out the board and thereafter exposed his hand. Is there any irregularity in this? He certainly did not expose any card during the auction.

Of course we are aware of that: that is precisely the law we are expecting to be applied. Clearly when 3rd player's apparent pass is acknowledged to be unintended and replaced with something else (for it is in time to do that), 4th player's call is no longer passing out the auction, so it didn't even finish the auction: this is one of the important reasons to distinguish between auction and auction period, as you have already acknowledged, because while still in the auction period we may discover the auction isn't finished yet for this reason among others. It isn't very nice for 4th player to discover the hand isn't over after he has exposed all his cards, a lesson to him not to do that when it is still the auction period. I generally say "all over then" before taking any drastic action at the end of a 4-pass auction, just in case there are any lurking issues.

I'm aware that rapidly putting your had walrus-like on the table and saying "I had 11, oh you had 11 too, what a shame one of us didn't risk a bid" is common behaviour in some quarters, I did the same when 14 and playing cards on the school lockers, but people who want to play properly should learn a bit better.

If 4th player had not been hasty in his actions, we perhaps have a little more sympathy for him when 3rd player comes up with a call rather slowly over his pass card used as a stop card, for it isn't good practice for 3rd player to show a stop card and then think again. This hand is exactly the reason why facing your hand is a dangerous way of passing out what you think is a 4-pass auction.

[blackshoe]

iviehoff, on 2013-August-19, 05:13, said:

a lesson to him not to do that [expose his cards] when it is still the auction period.

In the case of four passes, the auction period ends when all four hands are returned to the board, so players are well advised never to expose their hands in this situation.

[barmar]

blackshoe, on 2013-August-19, 08:17, said:

In the case of four passes, the auction period ends when all four hands are returned to the board, so players are well advised never to expose their hands in this situation.

Yeah, that'll happen.

The advantage of pass-outs is that they're so quick that you have more time available for post-mortems. I've never seen a pass-out that wasn't followed by some examination to see which side had the majors.

[blackshoe]

I never claimed anybody would do the smart thing.