[eagles123]

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Playing Acol, this was our bidding, the K club is onside thus 9 tricks are easy. Is this just lucky or is there a way to get there?

Thanks,

Eagles

[gwnn]

I was googling around and some people seem to play 1C-1NT as 8-10 hcp and instead bid 1D or 2C with a weaker balanced hand.

[campboy]

South should just raise to 3♣ IMO.

[mycroft]

1. Open a strong NT. (Yeah, that's not helpful, but it will work for those that do).
2. 1♣-1NT being 8-10, opener has an INV raise. If you don't have that agreement, then you are going to have trouble with "15-to-17-opposite-6-to-10".
3. I do like the club raise idea (and with diamonds, I would definitely do it, because I *don't* have the agreement that 1♦-1NT is 8-10).
4. Oddly enough, I open this 1♦, and would have some real issues because I *won't* find the club fit.

This is a really nice layout for "worrisome leads", notice. If the finesse is wrong, it'll be into the short-major hand that you've held up long enough to be safe. Your heart spots are golden. You have all the aces. Any of those not being there could turn this hand into "9 if it works, 7 or 8 if it doesn't" crapshoot where 1NT is no worse a spot than 3.

[eagles123]

We did have the agreement that 1c - 1N was 8-10 points. Therefore, was I as North worth an invite?

[the hog]

The above posts are resulting. The bidding is perfectly normal. TRy makig it if the C hook loses or Cs don't break.

[gwnn]

 eagles123, on 2013-July-22, 17:58, said:

We did have the agreement that 1c - 1N was 8-10 points. Therefore, was I as North worth an invite?

No, you weren't. Opener should pass 1NT responses with 15-16 (unless playing the 8-10 range). But 6-9 is not a good range for an 1NT response (you don't want to play 2NT with 15-16 opposite 15-16). Opposite 1D/H/S, you can play 1NT as 6-8 (bad 8's) and make a 2/1 with 9+ (good 8's included).

[the hog]

 mycroft, on 2013-July-22, 17:34, said:

1. Open a strong NT. (Yeah, that's not helpful, but it will work for those that do).
2. 1♣-1NT being 8-10, opener has an INV raise. If you don't have that agreement, then you are going to have trouble with "15-to-17-opposite-6-to-10".
3. I do like the club raise idea (and with diamonds, I would definitely do it, because I *don't* have the agreement that 1♦-1NT is 8-10).
4. Oddly enough, I open this 1♦, and would have some real issues because I *won't* find the club fit.

This is a really nice layout for "worrisome leads", notice. If the finesse is wrong, it'll be into the short-major hand that you've held up long enough to be safe. Your heart spots are golden. You have all the aces. Any of those not being there could turn this hand into "9 if it works, 7 or 8 if it doesn't" crapshoot where 1NT is no worse a spot than 3.

Note that though the finess is into the short S hand, if S are 4-4 he will still lose 3S and 1C and only have 8 tricks at this stage, so will need to play for a red suit squeeze.

[wank]

yes opposite 8-10 15 is an invitation. with a known minor fit, you could just punt game in fact.

the people who are not inviting just aren't used to playing that range. if 1nt had been 6-10, then inviting would be rather poor as you would end up going down in 2 or 3 more often than you would make 3nt. this is just a reflection of the fact that wide ranges damage your constructive bidding.

[the hog]

 wank, on 2013-July-22, 21:32, said:

yes opposite 8-10 15 is an invitation. with a known minor fit, you could just punt game in fact.

the people who are not inviting just aren't used to playing that range. if 1nt had been 6-10, then inviting would be rather poor as you would end up going down in 2 or 3 more often than you would make 3nt. this is just a reflection of the fact that wide ranges damage your constructive bidding.

rofl. I would say that those who invite with an ordinary 15 are not used to making good judgements on hand evaluation. You have a max of 25 and a 66% chance of having less than that.

[mikl_plkcc]

I play 1NT response as good 6-9. Is it good?

[gwnn]

 mikl_plkcc, on 2013-July-23, 00:23, said:

I play 1NT response as good 6-9. Is it good?

It is good if you play strong NT but not if you play weak NT.

[the hog]

 gwnn, on 2013-July-23, 00:27, said:

It is good if you play strong NT but not if you play weak NT.

Actually it makes no difference what strength NT you play. It just means you should invite with decent 16 hands. The problem is transferred to a different level with a 15-17 NT.

[Codo]

23 out of your 25 HCP are working and you missed a game which needs 5 club tricksto come in?

I would not invite opposite a 8-10 HCP hand with the north hand....

[gwnn]

 the hog, on 2013-July-23, 01:25, said:

Actually it makes no difference what strength NT you play. It just means you should invite with decent 16 hands. The problem is transferred to a different level with a 15-17 NT.

How do you mean exactly? Which level is it transferred to? In both strong NT and (old style) Acol a 1NT response says "I have insufficient strength to invite opposite your minimum balanced range" no? So that would be 6-10 or so in a strong NT context and 6-7 or so in a weak NT context (of course 1C-p-1NT as 8-10 would be an exception to this rule). Are you referring to "semibalanced" one-suited hands in the 14-17 range which are almost strong enough to invite opposite 6-10? Many of these hands can still go and open 1NT. There are problems of course with 5m431 hands but you will have them in every system. I'm probably missing something elementary here, sorry..

[Cyberyeti]

 the hog, on 2013-July-22, 18:45, said:

The above posts are resulting. The bidding is perfectly normal. TRy makig it if the C hook loses or Cs don't break.

TBF it's almost as likely they lead a heart as a spade, now a good guess at trick 1 and you're home even if the clubs don't behave, a bad guess at trick 1 still gives you chances.

I open the N hand 1♦ and it depends if I respond 2♣ in which case I'll be in game or 1N when I won't. I think I bid 2♣ at teams, might bid 1N at pairs.

[mycroft]

The problem is (in my world, not as much in the OPs) that 9-with-two-bullets is not inviting opposite everybody else's 1NT opener, they're just blasting it. If I play 1NT response as 8-10, I can play 2NT as 15-16 and invite, and we'll see.

Having said that, thanks 'hog; I missed that we were only 8 without the hook. I was saying that we were lucky that we're not down-off-the-hoof if the finesse fails (the Ax is opposite nice cards; the Axx can hold up; compare to Q8 T72 in responder's majors); the fact that we're not -5, but we aren't +9 is an add-on to "3NT danger".

The final line of "it's a crapshoot, and next time you may be on the other side of the coin" is apt. My issue is that I continue to be coloured with "it's a crapshoot, but if I'm not in 3, I have no company", those instincts impacting my worries even though I know that's not the case where the OP is.

[the hog]

 gwnn, on 2013-July-23, 02:18, said:

How do you mean exactly? Which level is it transferred to? In both strong NT and (old style) Acol a 1NT response says "I have insufficient strength to invite opposite your minimum balanced range" no? So that would be 6-10 or so in a strong NT context and 6-7 or so in a weak NT context (of course 1C-p-1NT as 8-10 would be an exception to this rule). Are you referring to "semibalanced" one-suited hands in the 14-17 range which are almost strong enough to invite opposite 6-10? Many of these hands can still go and open 1NT. There are problems of course with 5m431 hands but you will have them in every system. I'm probably missing something elementary here, sorry..

Ok Gwnn, lets say you play a 12-14 NT. Now pd with 11 average points will pass as inviting is against the odds, maybe he will even do this with a dreadful 12.
Now lets say playing a 15-17 NT the bidding goes 1x 1y 1nt. Opener has about 11-14, maybe even a good 10 the way some people play here. Pd has a problem as to invite with 11 or even a bad 12. (Even 13 may not produce a game, though everyone will invite). All you have done is to have transferred the problem.
In addition you need to consider the benefit you often get from a wnt. I am not advocating one or the other; I have played both and what you play has to be fitted into your system as a whole, which of course you already know.

[wank]

 the hog, on 2013-July-23, 18:38, said:

Ok Gwnn, lets say you play a 12-14 NT. Now pd with 11 average points will pass as inviting is against the odds, maybe he will even do this with a dreadful 12.

i heard you got a bonus for making games these days

[the hog]

 wank, on 2013-July-23, 21:47, said:

i heard you got a bonus for making games these days

I also hears that you get minus score for going down. Doesn't this happen anymore?