[flytoox]

Pd and I have different view about the following sequence. SO here I am to look for your opinion.


W E
2D! 2H
2S 3S?

2D=One major suit, weak.

What is this 3S? Is 3S just a preempt bid or an invitational bid?

[yunling]

Preemptive, since you have 2NT available for invitational hands.

[twcho]

I would construe this as an invitational bid. If opponents are going to enter the auction, they will do it earlier. And even if they enter after responder passes the 2♠ bid, he can still balance with 3♠ later.

Not every hand is suitable for a 2NT relay. With misfit in ♥ and fit in ♠, one can only settle in 2♥. However, after finding out that opener is holding long ♠, the hand greatly improves and even GF is possible.

[Siegmund]

Quote

Not every hand is suitable for a 2NT relay. With misfit in ♥ and fit in ♠, one can only settle in 2♥. However, after finding out that opener is holding long ♠, the hand greatly improves and even GF is possible.

I think Yunling was proposing that 2D-2H,2S-2NT (among other possibilities) is available to handle the hand that wants to drop in 2H but invite in spades, if you want to use 2D-2H,2S-3S as preemptive.

That said, the handful of times I ever played Multi (being from the US, the only time I ever play Multi is when I am playing on BBO with a foreign partner who likes Multi but doesn't know Wilkosz), I would have taken this 3S as invitational.

[fromageGB]

When I and many people around me played the multi, this was the standard way to invite game with a spade holding, but not hearts. That said, it may be better to have 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ 2NT as the invitation, because I don't think a natural 2NT would be useful. 3♠ could be a useful preempt, because LHO with hearts would have passed on the previous round. But simplicity ruled.

[Zelandakh]

Isn't "simplest" to use the same structure here as you would over a weak 2♠ opening? Especially if you were playing 3 Weak 2s before switching to the Multi, or use the Multi to get split-range Weak 2s. I doubt it makes much difference in practise how one plays it providing you and partner agree.

[PhilKing]

After 2♦-2♥-2♠, you can do the lot:

2NT = puppet to 3♣, then:
.....Pass = to play
.....3♦/♥ = to play
.....3♠ = inv (please don't make any fatuous bids asking partner to tell the opponents his shape. It's not necessary. Partner knows you are 32xx/42xx or similar, so quant is best.)
3♣ = ♣s and ♥s, 55+ inv
3♦ = ♦s and ♥s 55+ inv
3♥ = inv
3♠ = pre

The ability to show hearts and a minor has scored some huge goals, and is particulalry useful opposite the infamous "trash" multi.

Back to the original question, raising this auction is no different from raising an opening 2♠ to three. After all, the hand that passed over 2♥ can have anything up to a pretty good take-out double of spades, and you need to price out his weaker doubles.

[twcho]

PhilKing, on 2013-July-16, 04:34, said:

After 2♦-2♥-2♠, you can do the lot:

2NT = puppet to 3♣, then:
.....Pass = to play
.....3♦/♥ = to play
.....3♠ = inv (please don't make any fatuous bids asking partner to tell the opponents his shape. It's not necessary. Partner knows you are 32xx/42xx or similar, so quant is best.)
3♣ = ♣s and ♥s, 55+ inv
3♦ = ♦s and ♥s 55+ inv
3♥ = inv
3♠ = pre

Isn't that many of the above hands wouldn't exist after the initial response of 2♥? For hands with good ♥ but not ♠, the standard response should be 2♠.

[PhilKing]

twcho, on 2013-July-16, 20:43, said:

Isn't that many of the above hands wouldn't exist after the initial response of 2♥? For hands with good ♥ but not ♠, the standard response should be 2♠.

If you hold ♠-♥AKQxx♦KQJTx♣xxx, you definitely do not want to play in 2♠ (at least you don't when I open a multi) and by responding 2♥ you get a second bite at the cherry.

Similarly, with the heart one-suiters, you have to bid 2♥ to start with. Now this may not be how you learnt the multi (and it changes how you describe a 2♥ response) but responding 2♠ on the above is strictly for masochists.

[Zelandakh]

How do you play the 2NT and 3m response to the multi Phil? It seems like there is potential to get these hands in ealier. I would feel very sad if partner had xxx/Jxxxxx/Axxx/- and the opps had somehow managed to keep quiet.

[PhilKing]

Zelandakh, on 2013-July-17, 02:55, said:

How do you play the 2NT and 3m response to the multi Phil? It seems like there is potential to get these hands in ealier. I would feel very sad if partner had xxx/Jxxxxx/Axxx/- and the opps had somehow managed to keep quiet.

2NT = GF relay focusing on suit quality
3♣ = inv relay focusing just on range

This is needed because my multi is very undisciplined 1st seat nv (good weak 2 opens 2M showing 8-11).

Don't worry about playing in 2♥ with a big red fit - it's way less likely than playing in 2♠ off two with 4♥ a spread.

[Free]

twcho, on 2013-July-16, 20:43, said:

Isn't that many of the above hands wouldn't exist after the initial response of 2♥? For hands with good ♥ but not ♠, the standard response should be 2♠.

Whenever our holding suggests there's a fair chance that opener doesn't have a particular Major, you don't have to respond in paradox.

One of the things many people don't know about multi is that responder can always play in his own Major by bidding it twice. 2♦-2♠-3♥-3♠ for example is the best example, because many people think 2♦-2♠ should be an invite with ♥ fit. 2♦-2♥-2♠-3♥ is more obvious.

This is actually one of the advantages of multi: you have several ways to play in another strain. When responding in paradox, you accept to play in opener's Major, but when that seems like a very bad idea (void in one of the Majors for example) you should try to find another playable spot by not responding in paradox.

Phil's scheme allows him to play in any other suit, and also to show some constructive hands, a very nice tool imo. I wonder what he plays after 2♦-2♠ hint hint

[Zelandakh]

What I am thinking of is using 3m to show an invitational 2-suiter with the minor bid and an unspecified major and 2NT as a general enquiry. I think it is just about possible to get everything in over this, say 3♣ = hearts (then 3♦ asks: 3♥ = min (3♠ asks about suit quality); 3♠ = max and bad suit; 3NT = max and good suit); 3♦ = spades, min (then 3♥ asks about suit quality); 3♥ = spades, max, bad suit; 3♠ = spades, max, good suit. The one-suited invite still needs to be bid via 2M and there is a potential issue for GF heart one-suiters.

It is only an idea-brainstorming at this stage really; I need to think about it: But I think there might be some potential down here to get the benefits you describe with less risk. I also seem to remember a thread some months back regarding a similar hand to this where pretty much everyone was agreed that responding 2♠ was a bad idea. Perhaps someone who remembers it can find a link.

[PhilKing]

Free, on 2013-July-17, 03:34, said:

Phil's scheme allows him to play in any other suit, and also to show some constructive hands, a very nice tool imo. I wonder what he plays after 2♦-2♠ hint hint

Opener bids 3♣ on 100% of his heart hands. It doesnt work quite as smoothly because I have a balanced 23-24 in the multi, so I can't do as much.

[PhilKing]

Zelandakh, on 2013-July-17, 03:56, said:

I also seem to remember a thread some months back regarding a similar hand to this where pretty much everyone was agreed that responding 2♠ was a bad idea. Perhaps someone who remembers it can find a link.

http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry712600

There were plenty of votes for 2♠ .