[shnk]

QJ76/AK7/A82/984
1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - 2♦!
2♥ - 2♠
?

2♦ is forcing to game.
I assume 2♠ shows slam interest with 4 spades?
What is opener's next bid?

[Antrax]

I don't like saying this, but it's completely a matter of agreement.
In my partnership, my next bid is 2NT, showing I also have a diamond stopper, a (semi)balanced hand and a minimum opener (which is debatable - ♥AK can't be bad but 4-3-3-3 and QJ are).

[Cyberyeti]

Antrax, on 2013-July-13, 00:18, said:

I don't like saying this, but it's completely a matter of agreement.
In my partnership, my next bid is 2NT, showing I also have a diamond stopper, a (semi)balanced hand and a minimum opener (which is debatable - ♥AK can't be bad but 4-3-3-3 and QJ are).

QJ in your potential trump suit are not bad, arguably they're better than A (put them opposite K10xx for example). I would have thought this was a case where 3N should be the minimum and 2N the non minimum in a potential slam auction.

[aguahombre]

shnk, on 2013-July-13, 00:09, said:

QJ76/AK7/A82/984
1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - 2♦!
2♥ - 2♠
?

2♦ is forcing to game.
I assume 2♠ shows slam interest with 4 spades?
What is opener's next bid?

I don't assume Responder has 4 spades, but I do agree she has slam interest and Spade control(s). I think we are going to be in Hearts because we had other ways after or without 4SF to establish Spades as trump. 3♦ works for me, now..a control bid which should make her aware that my alleged Club suit might not be robust. (And if your partner does guarantee four spades I still think 3D is best.)

For those on the opposite side of the running debate on whether this hand should have rebid 1NT, the inferences of this auction might be different. For us, we would be content and not fear partner expects an unbalanced hand.

[Winstonm]

I think it is kind of silly to cater to balanced hands with no club stop in these types auctions when there is no good way to establish a spade or club fit with a strong hand. The only reason I can think of to avoid 3NT with no club stop is the willingness to play game in a 4/3 fit. Otherwise, I'm not going to introduce the 4th suit and simply bid 3NT, even with clubs unstopped, leaving 2 unbid suits to lead instead of pinpointing the weakness.

Perfect bidding is impossible - I look for the most useful treatment in these situations. Going down 1 or 2 in a normal 3NT contract is no big deal. Reaching the wrong game or missing slam is a big deal.

[shnk]

shnk, on 2013-July-13, 00:09, said:

QJ76/AK7/A82/984
1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - 2♦!
2♥ - 2♠
?

2♦ is forcing to game.
I assume 2♠ shows slam interest with 4 spades?
What is opener's next bid?

I was responder in this hand holding AK52/Q962/Q64/AK.

club lead. Rightly or wrongly, partner drew trump in 3 rounds, played heart A+K and finessed the heart 9 making six spades

As far as the auction goes, I really wanted to establish spades as trumps and get a control showing cuebid or two out of partner to make sure we weren't off two tricks in one of the red suits. The question remains, does my 2♠ establish spades as trumps and if so, what does 2NT or a bid on the 3 level from opener mean?

Antrax, on 2013-July-13, 00:18, said:

In my partnership, my next bid is 2NT, showing I also have a diamond stopper, a (semi)balanced hand and a minimum opener

This worked well here. What do you bid with more than a minimum?

Cyberyeti, on 2013-July-13, 03:31, said:

I would have thought this was a case where 3N should be the minimum and 2N the non minimum in a potential slam auction.

In a 2/1 GF auction we play that the jump to 3NT, skipping 2NT, shows moderate extra values, so I would assume we play the same after a 4th suit forcing. This could be really bad, I'm interested to here what other people think about this?

aguahombre, on 2013-July-13, 09:14, said:

I don't assume Responder has 4 spades, but I do agree she has slam interest and Spade control(s). I think we are going to be in Hearts because we had other ways after or without 4SF to establish Spades as trump. 3♦ works for me, now..a control bid which should make her aware that my alleged Club suit might not be robust. (And if your partner does guarantee four spades I still think 3D is best.)

For those on the opposite side of the running debate on whether this hand should have rebid 1NT, the inferences of this auction might be different. For us, we would be content and not fear partner expects an unbalanced hand.

How do we force and establish spades as trumps without 4SF?

If 2♠ doesn't promise 4 spades then after 3♦, what is 3♠ (control in support of hearts or a real spade suit)?
Control showing bids that occur below 3 of the trump suit seem to trip me up.

Partner insists on bidding 1S after 1m-1H with any 4 spades, balanced or not, which is fine with me.

[aguahombre]

shnk, on 2013-July-13, 12:59, said:

How do we force and establish spades as trumps without 4SF?

Your given hand is too strong to just jump to 4S; but after 4SF and the 2H bid, you can jump to 3S. This doesn't excessively use up bidding room, because your slammish intentions and demand for cue-bidding are clear.

1C-1H
1S-2D
2H-3S
4D...now just Wood it; there are six key cards since opener has shown heart support.

[mike777]

shnk, on 2013-July-13, 00:09, said:

QJ76/AK7/A82/984
1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - 2♦!
2♥ - 2♠
?

2♦ is forcing to game.
I assume 2♠ shows slam interest with 4 spades?
What is opener's next bid?

3d for me...I have extras.

If pard can bid 4c I will rebid 4h, slam try in spades.

If pard rebids 3s over 3d I will try 4h, again slam try in spades but no club cuebid.

[Antrax]

Quote

This worked well here. What do you bid with more than a minimum?

Depends on the nature of the hand. 3♦, 3NT and 3♠ are all possibilities, 3♠ being the strongest of the three for us. But as you've already seen, this treatment is probably not ideal - we use it because it's easy to remember as it's pretty similar to how things go for us in 2/1 auctions.

[EricK]

My hand is not that strong, in context. Due to system constraints I have managed to bid 3 suits on a 4-3-3-3 8 loser hand, and my first bid suit is my weakest. I could equally have a 4-3-1-5 hand with good ♣. The difference in playing strength between these two hands is huge. And furthermore, partner has, at this stage, no idea what cards are useful and what ones aren't. ♦xxx ♣QJ is one loser opposite ♦x ♣AKxxx and 4 losers opposite what I actually have.

I'm not certain he even has 4♠! How might he bid ♠Kxx ♥QJxx ♦xxxx ♣AK, for instance? Is he the type to gamble NT with 4 ♦ losers opposite a fairly likely singleton?

I think I have to bid 2NT here. It shows the ♦ stop, shows I have at least a semi-balanced hand, and strongly hints that whatever else we have, we won't have 5 running club tricks.

[mikeh]

I strongly recommend that you consider not rebidding 1♠ with this hand.

There are 3 schools of thought on this practice. One would never rebid 1♠ with any balanced hand, and the other extreme would always bid spades with 4 of them, while a middle group would usually bid spades but would not do so if specifically 4=3=3=3. You can see that this hand, then, would be rebid in NT by 2 of the 3 schools and, at least in NA, most good players belong to one or other of them.

However, your main point, about how responder goes about setting spades as trump, is an area where I happen to agree with you.

I often agree with agua, but not here.

I think it useful to use language to describe what 4SF is all about. To me, use of 4SF is like partner saying: We are going to game, but I am not yet telling you why I like my hand.

Opener's task is to make the call that best combines a description of his hand and keeps the bidding low, to maximize the space for partner to say why he likes his hand.

Here, bidding 2♥ serves both purposes and is clearly the correct call. Now Responder says why he is interested.

Thus his 2♠ bid shows that his 2♦ was bid because he wants to be in at least 4♠ (tho, in fairness, in well-honed partnerships, the partnership may still play in notrump at game or higher, especially if opener could still be 4333).

I do not like the notion of responder having to jump to 3♠ to show a slam try. If responder had a horrible game raise, he'd have bid 4♠ over 1♠. With anything else, he can afford to bid 2♠ which maximizes the room available for opener to show whether he likes his hand in the context of the bidding so far. Neither side is committed to cue-bidding at this juncture, so both sides can show whether they have mild interest, or better, and have lots of room to describe their hands and still stop in game when slam is unlikely.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that over 2♥, a jump to 3♠ could be used as a splinter, agreeing hearts!

x AKxxxx Kxx QJx.......the alternative of bidding 3♥over 2♥ is less descriptive. On this sort of hand, you want partner to upgrade or downgrade depending on controls and location of cards.

Opposite Jxxx Qxx Ax AKxx, slam is almost cold. Opposite KJxx xxx QJx AKx, the same hcp and the same trump length, slam is hopeless and the 5 level isn't safe.

On the first hand, the splinter gets opener very excited. On the second, opener hates his hand and bids a quiet 4♥.

On the actual hand, opener should, imo, rebid 2N. Bidding 3N needlessly consumes bidding space. We have reason to be concerned about choice of game, and our majors are such that we want to keep them in the picture more than would a somewhat committal 3N. I'd bid 3N with say Qxxx Jxx AQ9 KQx.

I don't think that the 2N/3N issue is about min/max. There are auctions in which it is, but this isn't one of those. To me, this is about location of values and shape. 2N expresses doubt.

Bear in mind that opener can't have a balanced 15-17 since he didn't open 1N. He can't have a balanced 18+ since he didn't jump to 2N. So he has 12-14 (or 11-14 if you are so inclined) and I think using 2n/3n to distinguish between say 11-12 or 13-14, without regard to location of values, is simply a poor choice.

[Antrax]

mikeh, I don't think you can completely rule out a semibalanced 15-17. Opener could have 4=2=2=5 or even 4=1=3=5 with honors in the long suits.

[mikeh]

Antrax, on 2013-July-15, 10:46, said:

mikeh, I don't think you can completely rule out a semibalanced 15-17. Opener could have 4=2=2=5 or even 4=1=3=5 with honors in the long suits.

You are correct insofar as the 2nd round of the bidding, but the 2♥ bid by opener on the 3rd round negates that possibility.

Indeed, while I wasn't specific, that is one of the areas in which one could argue that opener can and should, in response to 2♦, use 3N to show 15-17, either 4=2=2=5 or 4=1=3=5, with 2N being the 11/12-14 variety of the same hand types.

[Antrax]

Oh, sorry. I meant the general principle in these auctions, not this particular auction.

[shnk]

Thank you for the instructive replies!

I realize many openers would skip the spade suit. We've even discussed it; partner insists on bidding 4 card suits up the line. I've often felt weird bidding spades at that point. At least we have an agreement.

Anyway, opener did rebid 2NT showing a balanced 12-14, as recommended by many of you.

Responder(me) had AK52/Q962/Q64/AK.

I think I should still look for slam?
I think I need to hear a diamond cuebid before I even think of proceeding past game, or did 2NT promise a top honor in diamonds?
We bid first and second round controls equally. Generally we only cuebid above 3 of an agreed major. In fact we have never defined any situation where we would show controls below 3 of a major trump suit. In other game forcing auctions where a major suit is agreed trump at the 2-level, we use the 3-level to show pattern or to show suits in need of complement or as natural, depending on the scenario. Most jump shifts in 2/1 auctions are defined as splinters.

So I was a little lost here: I have the entire 3-level to work with but no real agreement on what these bids would mean.

How should the rest of the 3 level bids by responder be defined?

[aguahombre]

shnk, on 2013-July-16, 00:29, said:

Anyway, opener did rebid 2NT showing a balanced 12-14, as recommended by many of you.

Responder(me) had AK52/Q962/Q64/AK.

I think I should still look for slam?
I think I need to hear a diamond cuebid before I even think of proceeding past game, or did 2NT promise a top honor in diamonds?..........
So I was a little lost here: I have the entire 3-level to work with but no real agreement on what these bids would mean.

How should the rest of the 3 level bids by responder be defined?

Those who believe 2S showed four of them and still insist they want to bid 2NT because of a need to stall the cuebidding and show a balanced hand are o.k. now, regardless.

Your hand can cuebid 3C, and certainly opener will finally cuebid 3D. You are still in a six-keycard situation and can just ask for them. You find out about the Q, AK, and A; your know the slam will be at the very worst dependent on the location of the Diamond king in the opponents' hands, with other possibilities (heart suit providing four tricks for instance).

[Fluffy]

---

Normal aproach: you use the bids below 3 of our fit to show shape, and when shape s known to show values.

Space consuming bids in our fit are 'preemptive' that would mean that bidding 3♠ over 2NT or 3♣ would show not much interest in slam (minimum), jumping to 4♠ is also possible, but it should be reserved for truly ugly hands.

In a slam auction it is as important (or even more) the bids you do not make as the bids you do make.

For example on this auction, if you are responder you know:

Partner has better hearts than diamonds (bid 3♥ instead of 3♦), partner has diamond control that is not shortness (he bid 2NT and cuebid diamonds), so you can deduce he has ♥AJx, ♥AKx or ♥KJx, he has also made encouraging bids all the way, so he probably has 14 or prime 13, a diamond doubleton is also possible wich would make slam even better.

All in all prospects are good, but if you are still unsure of moving on you can bid 4♠ over 4♦ showing lack of ♥AK, partner will deduce you have strong clubs and spades for your slam tries, but he probably won't realice that ♣xxx is great because he doesn't know your doubleton.

[Fluffy]

I also disagree with those who think 2♠ can be 3 cards, this is nonsense, after 4SF you set trumps for slam, or at least suggest a possible one, setting trumps on a suit where having a fit is impossible is wrong. There is a 2NT GF avaible for those hands, and even if it wasn't (it is here, because if we only had 4 hearts and invitational values we would had bid 2NT instead of 4SF) hands without fit can bid quantitative 4NT.

It is however possible to bid 3♣ as an invitation to play in clubs, since club length is at this point is unknown (could be 3, 4 or 5 cards), 3♣ bid is used to suggest it as trumps, partner will retreat to 3NT with 3 cards (And perhaps with an unsuitable hand with bad 4), and make value bids with the others.

[Winstonm]

Fluffy, on 2013-July-16, 08:25, said:

I also disagree with those who think 2♠ can be 3 cards, this is nonsense, after 4SF you set trumps for slam, or at least suggest a possible one, setting trumps on a suit where having a fit is impossible is wrong. There is a 2NT GF avaible for those hands, and even if it wasn't (it is here, because if we only had 4 hearts and invitational values we would had bid 2NT instead of 4SF) hands without fit can bid quantitative 4NT.

It is however possible to bid 3♣ as an invitation to play in clubs, since club length is at this point is unknown (could be 3, 4 or 5 cards), 3♣ bid is used to suggest it as trumps, partner will retreat to 3NT with 3 cards (And perhaps with an unsuitable hand with bad 4), and make value bids with the others.

I agree here. The only hand I can think of that might want to use 2S as 3-card support would be AKx, Qxxx, KJx, xxx, and my thinking is "what's the point in that" when a NT bid perfectly describes your shape?

I have the same problem with inverted minors - why all the stopper-showing/asking when with a weak NT shaped hand, opener can simply bid 2N? Now all those other bids can be for something really useful, like shape-showing, helping to reach minor suit games and slams?

[aguahombre]

Winstonm, on 2013-July-16, 09:33, said:

I agree here. The only hand I can think of that might want to use 2S as 3-card support would be AKx, Qxxx, KJx, xxx, and my thinking is "what's the point in that" when a NT bid perfectly describes your shape?

I think we are going off track here. The hand you gave would not have bid 4sf at all, but rather 3nt after 1C-1H-1S.

And my minority position about 2S did not use 2S as guaranteeing 3-card support. It was the start of a control sequence agreeing Hearts or pattern if preferred, agreeing Hearts for slam.