[jillybean]

A hand from the club tonight 54% game, 44% board

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Maybe you foresaw this problem and bid 3♦ last round?

[aguahombre]

My problem is not the choice of minor on the previous round. My problem is whether partner thinks 3S is forcing. Normally it wouldn't be, but maybe she thinks my 3m bid rather than a Lebenish 2NT showed more strength which I don't have.

If that isn't a problem, then passing isn't a problem. At the outset, when doubling the preempt partner should be making an assumption I hold some nondescript 6-9 count. I have the lower range of that and crummy Spade support. Time to pass.

[MrAce]

4♦ describes my hand perfectly.

Passing is out of question imo, and it is irrelavant whether pd thinks it is forcing or not since we have a clear bid even when it is NF. Using lebensohl it should be % 100 forcing btw. Without leben, 3♣ shows apprx 0-9 and we have 5-4 suits 7 hcp. I am not a big fan of this " 7 expected hcps " theory. I want my pd to bid his hand diferently when he holds 7 hcp and differently when holds 2 hcp, especially after i start with DBL and then bid a new suit at 3 level.

With 1 suited hand pd should have started with 3♠ over 2♥. Or he could even start 2♠ which my memory tells me majority of people in forums play it up to a bad 18 hcp. Double and then bidding spades shows he has another place to play. Playing lebensohl, pd can even hold 4 card clubs and still bid his 5-6 card spades before he support the clubs. Bidding 3♦ previous round is from another planet to me.

[Zelandakh]

Not sure I follow that argument agua. Partner has a flexible hand, perhaps something like 5143. Why would I voluntarily play in our (probably) 6 card fit rather than an 8 card fit?

[MrAce]

Zelandakh, on 2013-July-11, 02:29, said:

Not sure I follow that argument agua. Partner has a flexible hand, perhaps something like 5143. Why would I voluntarily play in our (probably) 6 card fit rather than an 8 card fit?

Exactly, no need to mention that this is MP. . But passing is so bad that it may hurt you badly even at IMPS with this hand and auction imo.

[Fluffy]

I normally play lebensohl here, and I would had used it, 2NT and then 4♣ over 3♠.

If I play lebensolh but decided this hand is too strong to use it I would bid 4♣ now as my hand is very poor in context.

If I don't play lebensohl and thus I could have a zero count, I bid 4♦ now to show some values.

[jillybean]

Here's the full hand, yes we play leb, 3♠ is forcing.

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[PhilKing]

Fluffy, on 2013-July-11, 04:30, said:

I normally play lebensohl here, and I would had used it, 2NT and then 4♣ over 3♠.

If I play lebensolh but decided this hand is too strong to use it I would bid 4♣ now as my hand is very poor in context.

If I don't play lebensohl and thus I could have a zero count, I bid 4♦ now to show some values.

I'm not sure I agree this is right.

After 3♣(borderline)-3♠, I think 4♣ just shows more clubs. Once we chose to show values and partner bids 3♠, I would assume we are in a game force, so I would bid 4♦. Sure, we are light, but our hand is pretty pure, and if partner pots a slam I will not be embarrassed.

On this hand, we will be beating off a few grand slam tries ....

[MrAce]

jillybean, on 2013-July-11, 06:26, said:

Here's the full hand, yes we play leb, 3♠ is forcing.

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This hand actually supports what i said earlier about why pass is out of question regardless of 3♠ being forcing or nf.

We all seem to have agreed that playing leben, 3♠ was forcing.

What if we did not play leben ? We would still be bidding 3♣ which would make 3♠ NF. Could N bid anything else than3♠ when 3♠ is NF ? I would think the answer is no. Yes he has 22 hcp but not a proud suit or shape. He has a semi balanced hand and i think it would be very reasonable to stay below game when pd holds 0-3 hcp and no support for suit. What other options do we have anyway ? What is N supposed to bid with this 5242 22 hcp ? Jump in spade suit ? Cue and then bid his 5 card suit and waste more and more space with the religious belief that says "pd holds 6-9 hcp" ?

For example take ♦ Q from pd and put it to clubs, then we would still have a fit in clubs, or put it to hearts then he would probably not even bother to bid this spade suit and bid 3NT over a non leben 3♣

But with south hand 5-4 suits and pure 7 hcp, when pd says he doesnt have proud spade single suited hand (or he would start 3 or 4 ♠ depending on your methods) it is still a clear to bid on. Or you play 3♠ in 5-1 fit, at MP, when slam or even grandslam has decent succes rate in another suit.

[ArtK78]

I would have bid 3♣ playing Lebensohl, as I think that this hand is good enough for the bid. Over 3♠, one is endplayed into bidding 4♦. 3♠ is forcing and I leave it to partner to decide that his hand is good enough to choose double followed by 3♠ as his plan of action. I am going to bid my cards and see what happens.

No doubt I will be extremely worried about the subsequent vault into the stratosphere following my 4♦ call - until the dummy hits.

[aguahombre]

What I missed originally was the obvious ---that the double, then 3S, will not be a single-suited hand. It will most likely be only 5 in length. Single suiters could do something else (for instance a 3S balance rather than a double).

Passing with the given 1-3-4-5 hand would truly be silly regardless of whether that hand had misbid 3C instead of 2NT on the previous round per their agreements.

The next problem will be (if Leben was in-fact available), to carefully find a way to make the diamond slam into which we were launched by the 3C bid. 3C would have a 9 point floor opposite a direct double, but should even show more opposite a balancing double.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 Lebensohl is on?
#2 Assuming I can bid 3C / 3D, 3C is normal, I have a 5 card suit and a 4 card suit, I bid the 5 card suit
#3 I will pass, 3S is NF, I have no fit, I have no stopper, we play MP, going plus is more important than
reaching game

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ggwhiz]

jillybean, on 2013-July-10, 23:14, said:

44% board

Since you play lebensohl here 3♠ is forcing period.

Where did the 44% come from?

[Free]

Since 3♠ is forcing, I don't see any alternative to 4♦. With 4-4 you would've started with 3♦, so now you show 5♣-4♦, no ♥ stopper and not the least bit of support for ♠. Basically you can't have much else than a 1=3=4=5.