[jeffford76]

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By agreement, 3♦ showed game forcing values opposite the reverse, 4+ diamonds and does not deny 5+ hearts. 3♥ shows 3 hearts and interest in the 5-3 fit if it exists.

[trevahound]

I had the same auction to that point, but in my auction 5+ hearts had been ordinarily denied. Under these circumstances, I think opener only knows trump is red.

[CSGibson]

Hard to say playing these methods. I like to play that my 3D sets diamonds as trump unambiguously - if I have 5 hearts, I also have slam interest, since I would tend to slow down the auction with 2H otherwise. So I would bid as though diamonds were agreed, though it is also clear to me that, if playing kickback, 4S is kickback for diamonds after this start.

[mike777]

d are trumps, spade cue.

[Winstonm]

3H in this sequence has to be a gentle probe for the best game/slam contract, and 3S must be a value bid, meaning cue or concentrated values. The next round of bidding should clarify the auction.

I could imagine opener bidding this way with x, KQx, AJx, AKJxxx. I would think that if opener was genuinely interested in diamonds as the suit, he would have bid something other than 3H. For example, wtih x, KQx, AJxx, AKJxx I would think opener would bid 3S as a slam try and then follow up with a bid of 4H over 3N, 4C or 4D.

[Siegmund]

I like to play that 3D unambiguously sets diamonds too.

But if I were playing a method where we still didn't know what trump was after the 3H bid... I would consider a 3S or 4C bid to agree hearts, and a 4D bid to agree diamonds. Much the same as after 1NT-2D-2H-3D, where the immediate cuebids agree the most recent suit and a return to the other suit sets it.

[nige1]

jeffford76, on 2013-July-09, 16:13, said:

By agreement, 3♦ showed game forcing values opposite the reverse, 4+ diamonds and does not deny 5+ hearts. 3♥ shows 3 hearts and interest in the 5-3 fit if it exists.

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IMO although a minor seems to be "agreed", major bids below 3N may still no-trump probes e.g.
North ♠ A x ♥ K x x ♦ A x ♣ A Q J x x x: 1♣ 2♦ 3♥ 3N
South ♠ J T x ♥ A x x x ♦ Q J x x ♣ x x: 1♥ 3♦ 3♠

[mike777]

nige1, on 2013-July-09, 22:05, said:

IMO although a minor seems to be "agreed", major bids below 3N may still no-trump probes e.g.
North ♠ A x ♥ K x x ♦ A x ♣ A Q J x x x: 1♣ 2♦ 3♥ 3N
South ♠ J T x ♥ A x x x ♦ Q J x x ♣ x x: 1♥ 3♦ 3♠

hate the fake reverse of 2d, why complicated things...just rebid 2nt or even 3c..

btw even 3d by south is questionable bid\, prefer 3d to be stronger if gf.

that is just making a simple auction very very complicated.

[IVAN CY LO]

This 3S is below 3NT line and I would treat this as an asking stopper in S for 3NT.

3D just as a game forcing value but it doesn't guarantee a slam interest.

[nige1]

nige1, on 2013-July-09, 22:05, said:

IMO although a minor seems to be "agreed", major bids below 3N may still no-trump probes e.g.
A
North ♠ A x ♥ K x x ♦ A x ♣ A Q J x x x: 1♣ 2♦ 3♥ 3N
South ♠ J T x ♥ A x x x ♦ Q J x x ♣ x x: 1♥ 3♦ 3♠

mike777, on 2013-July-09, 22:30, said:

hate the fake reverse of 2d, why complicated things...just rebid 2nt or even 3c..
btw even 3d by south is questionable bid\, prefer 3d to be stronger if gf.
that is just making a simple auction very very complicated.

A matter of taste, IMO. For example the fake reverse may work OK when the two hands are
B
North ♠ A x ♥ K x x ♦ A x ♣ A Q J x x x:
South ♠ x x x ♥ A Q J x ♦ x x x ♣ K x x:
or C
North ♠ A x ♥ K x x ♦ A x ♣ A Q J x x x:
South ♠ x x x ♥ Q T x x x ♦ x x ♣ K x x:

[mikeh]

Great problem.

We need to define some issues. The first one is whether responder's diamond raise denies 5+ hearts.

If it does, then one needs to define whether opener's 3♥ not only shows 3 card support but also invites responder to play in a 4-3 fit.

To me, the first answer is: no. I do not think that responder denies 5 hearts when raising diamonds.

Having to rebid 2♥ with all 5=4 red hands seems inefficient to me. I bid 2♥ and partner bids 3♣...what is my 3♦ call then, and how strong is it?

I far prefer to get my game-going strength and diamond support shown as soon as possible when holding most 5 card heart suits.

Once we have that agreement, assuming you agree with me, then we have to look at actions available to responder, who is unlimited, after 3♥.

With no slam interest he can just bid 4♥ to play, regardless of whether he has 5 or 4, in the latter case willing to play the moysian.

However, with slam interest he has no direct way of setting hearts as trump. This means that a cuebid of a black suit is either agreeing hearts or ambiguous as the red suit.

One could play 3N artificially here, btw, and there is some merit in doing so. Maybe 3N agrees one red suit, slamming, and cuebids define the other. After all, there will be few hands wanting to play 3N on this sequence. However, few is not equal to none and anyway one needs to have had a specific agreement to that effect and we don't.

Imo, it is wrong to play any ambiguous cue. Imagine opener bidding 4♣ and now responder bids 4♥. If 3♠ was based on diamonds, this is a cue. If based on hearts, this is a suggestion that maybe this is the spot...I've made a mild slam try but unless you have extras, partner, let's play here.

If slamming in diamonds, responder's job is to reject hearts and set diamonds and he can do this via 4♦. Yes, it is cumbersome and space consuming but it eliminates ambiguity: ambiguity in slam auctions is horrific.


All of this means that 3♠ is, for me, a slam try in hearts.

If my view were that 3♦ denied 5 hearts, then I'd opt for it as a slam try in diamonds. That's not, however, my view of the auction.

I reject the notion that it is a try for 3N. Responder's best attempt to play 3N is to bid 3N. Opener is usually short in spades on this sequence.

Typically he is 1=3=4=5/0=3=4=6/1=3=3=6.

If he is 2=3=2=6 and too strong for 3♣, he can sometimes bid 2N. On those few hands where he thinks that faking the reverse is the lesser distortion, then we live with the consequences. My view is that using 3♠ to attempt to cater to this (and precisely how does that work?) is an inefficient use of an otherwise useful call in a power auction. When opener opts for an intentional distortion, opener should be prepared for the consequences.

[Phil]

Agree 99% with MikeH, especially 3♠ setting hearts. The 1% represents how awkward it is to read a post without paragraphs .

44♣ over 3♥ should probably set diamonds IMO.