[bd71]

---

2/1.

What should you know about West's strength and distribution. Specifically, does 3N limit his hand, and if so to what?

[Hanoi5]

I think he's limited to whatever 2♣ limited him to. What it shows is spades stopped very short hearts and 6♦ and 4♣.

[helene_t]

With a max he would have bid something else, probably 4NT. Bidding 3NT I think he has no more than 15(16). With this shape he could have 10 according to the rule of 20 so a good 16 count is substantial extras and should be shown.

[Zelandakh]

Hanoi5, on 2013-July-08, 21:22, said:

I think he's limited to whatever 2♣ limited him to. What it shows is spades stopped very short hearts and 6♦ and 4♣.

With spades stopped, they would have bid 2NT over 2♠ so a half-stopper would be a better description. Whether a 6th diamond has been shown depends on what our mark-time bid over 2♠ is. And with a maximum, Opener would have bid something more encouraging over 3♥.

[bd71]

helene_t, on 2013-July-09, 03:30, said:

With a max he would have bid something else, probably 4NT.

Zelandakh, on 2013-July-09, 06:17, said:

And with a maximum, Opener would have bid something more encouraging over 3♥.

Perhaps it's not optimal, but 4N would be RKC for hearts in our system. What other non-limiting bids would you consider w/ 2164 distribution instead of 3N?

Suppose hand is:

AT
x
AQJxxx
Axxx

What would you recommend?

Now, suppose you're a bit weaker:

AT
x
AJxxxx
Axxx

What's your preference?

[Zelandakh]

I suppose you are also not allowing us 3♠ as a general force? This question is a little like asking what to open with 18 balanced playing a system where all opening bids promise an unbalanced hand except 1NT 14-16 and 2NT 20-21. Playing your methods, I suppose we have to start off a hand with extras 2NT and then bid diamonds the following round. But it is your system so you should probably know better than us.

[ArtK78]

West is limited but not minimum.

There are two ways to show 6-4 distribution with a higher ranking 6 card suit. They are:

1x - 1z
2x - any
3y

and

1x - 1z
2y - any
3x

It is my understanding that the first sequence is minimum and the second sequence shows some extras, but not a strong hand.

So, given that opener in the OP bid diamonds - clubs - diamonds, he should have a good hand, not worth an immediate jump - something like 13+ - 16 -. If he had bid diamonds - diamonds - clubs he would have less - 11 - 13-.

He probably has Kx or better in spades on this auction, typically 2-1-6-4 but possibly 3-0-6-4. 3NT does not limit his hand - he has already done that. 3NT just admits to the possession of a spade stop.

[bd71]

Zelandakh, on 2013-July-09, 07:42, said:

I suppose you are also not allowing us 3♠ as a general force? This question is a little like asking what to open with 18 balanced playing a system where all opening bids promise an unbalanced hand except 1NT 14-16 and 2NT 20-21. Playing your methods, I suppose we have to start off a hand with extras 2NT and then bid diamonds the following round. But it is your system so you should probably know better than us.

I guess I don't want to allow/disallow anything, but understand a bit more about how folks would approach this. My preference is for simpler natural bidding, limiting artificial bids/complexity/memory load/diversion from "standard" for where it's really important. I thought that 4N after the 3H bid would be RKC in "standard" 2/1...are you suggesting that's wrong?

If you suggesting that we really should have the 4N jump here defined as showing extras w/ a spade stopper, in this approach would you use 4S/Kickback as RKC? Or am I reading too much into the response?

[HeartA]

Zelandakh, on 2013-July-09, 06:17, said:

With spades stopped, they would have bid 2NT over 2♠ so a half-stopper would be a better description. Whether a 6th diamond has been shown depends on what our mark-time bid over 2♠ is. And with a maximum, Opener would have bid something more encouraging over 3♥.

I'd say he has stopper, but short in ♠ (Ax, Kx, for example), he'd rather show the extra length of ♦.

[Zelandakh]

bd71, on 2013-July-09, 08:45, said:

I thought that 4N after the 3H bid would be RKC in "standard" 2/1...are you suggesting that's wrong?

I do not play 2/1 but it seems to me to be possible but unnecessary. If Opener has heart support then they also have spade shortage (at least if 3♦ showed 6) and can mark time with a forcing 3♠. What 4♠ means is a matter for agreement but if Kickback is in play it would be a reasonable option. But what if West holds a maximum? They have to be able to bid something other than 3NT here, whether that be a natural 4NT or an artificial 3♠. Basically we have 3 hand types here to fit into 2 bids - slam drive in hearts; slam try in hearts; slam try in NT. Define either the first or the last as 4NT and bid the other 2 via 3♠. If you cannot stand this then fix it earlier in the auction, for example by extending the definition of 2NT over 4th suit forcing to include hands with slam ambition and a partial stopper.

[rhm]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-09, 08:23, said:

West is limited but not minimum.

There are two ways to show 6-4 distribution with a higher ranking 6 card suit. They are:

1x - 1z
2x - any
3y

and

1x - 1z
2y - any
3x

It is my understanding that the first sequence is minimum and the second sequence shows some extras, but not a strong hand.

So, given that opener in the OP bid diamonds - clubs - diamonds, he should have a good hand, not worth an immediate jump - something like 13+ - 16 -. If he had bid diamonds - diamonds - clubs he would have less - 11 - 13-.

He probably has Kx or better in spades on this auction, typically 2-1-6-4 but possibly 3-0-6-4. 3NT does not limit his hand - he has already done that. 3NT just admits to the possession of a spade stop.

The trouble with this method is that you assume your partner is strong and you will get a third chance to bid.
Few players for example nowadays prefer to rebid 2♠ when holding 4♥ say over a 1NT response, at least not, unless hearts are exceptionally weak and spades strong.
If you rebid 2♦ showing a minimum you might play there when you are cold for 6♣. If partner rebids his major I might want to shut up and would feel much more comfortable when I have shown 9 cards instead of six in my suits.

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

This is a murky sequence.
First it is not clear what you bid over 2♠ if nothing fits, say 2♠=2♥=5♦=4♣ with two low spades.
Second I see little options for opener if he now holds 2♠-1♥-6♦=4♣ with say ♠Qx or ♠Kx.
(I would rarely bid 2NT in preference to 3♦ in a constructive sequence)
Opener could be minimum or he could have substantial extras, but can hardly bid anything but 3NT because he should probably declare notrump and bypassing 3NT on a likely misfit is not recommended even with quite a bit more than minimum.
3♠ is forcing, but could also be minimum with 2♠-1♥-6♦=4♣ with nothing in spades.

Rainer Herrmann