[nigel_k]

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4♥ made easily. 5♣ is unlikely to be doubled and anyway is down only one with a successful spade guess.

[inquiry]

nigel_k, on 2013-June-14, 20:46, said:

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4♥ made easily. 5♣ is unlikely to be doubled and anyway is down only one with a successful spade guess.

It depends on what you play double of 3♥ as (yes, looking at the hand, I know what South played it as). There are three options.

• Penalty
• Some kind of maximal dbl with spade support so that 3♠ bid instead would be competitive
• Takeout, showing support for the other suits (without four spades, and with longer clubs than diamonds

Clearly it was meant as #3 above. I don't know what north was thinking if this was their agreement. He has two great diamonds and four card club support, and no real defense outside of diamonds. So he should bid 5♣. Also, if the agreement was #2, he has a clear 4♠ bid over 4♥. And to be honest, if it was #1 (penalty double) north could go ahead and double 4♥ with his ♦ honors and ♥Q.

I play this double as both #2 and #3 with different partners. Without discussion, I would always take this as #3. So here I can't seem to fault South. So my scoring would be North 110% at imps, and 95% at matchpoints (south could make a second takeout double in the balancing position).

[cherdano]

Double shows extras with no clear direction. Unfortunately that includes many hands - 18-19 balanced without stopper, one-suited without stopper, takeout.
Unfortunately, that also means I don't know what North should do over 4♥.

[dake50]

Was North ever to show 4 to J support?
I think 5C stands out with this poor defense holding.

[Codo]

So north should bid 5 club opposite a possible: AKx, Kx, Axx,Axxx turning a + into a minus?
Why should he? if this had been a3 NT bid or you, okay, change it to AKx,xx,Axx,AKxx...

South decided to double with his hand, now he is in the pass out seat, he heard his partner passing. What else does he need to bid?

[gnasher]

cherdano, on 2013-June-15, 04:18, said:

Double shows extras with no clear direction. Unfortunately that includes many hands - 18-19 balanced without stopper, one-suited without stopper, takeout.
Unfortunately, that also means I don't know what North should do over 4♥.

If North isn't going to bid 5♣ himself, he should double for takeout, suggesting a hand that wants to bid opposite the last two hand-types, and defend opposite the balanced 18-19.

[FrancesHinden]

nigel_k, on 2013-June-14, 20:46, said:

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4♥ made easily. 5♣ is unlikely to be doubled and anyway is down only one with a successful spade guess.

I think you'd do well to start the spades by running the 9.

[cherdano]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-June-15, 08:44, said:

I think you'd do well to start the spades by running the 9.

It seems reasonable to strip the hand and play a spade to the queen, playing LHO for the ♠T (or RHO for ♠AK, or LHO for ♠AK + a misdefense).

[PhilKing]

cherdano, on 2013-June-15, 08:51, said:

It seems reasonable to strip the hand and play a spade to the queen, playing LHO for the ♠T (or RHO for ♠AK, or LHO for ♠AK + a misdefense).

The defence will start ♥♦ an you will get a count making it a flip.

Obviously East should play the ♠8 on the first round to rep HT8, but how many would really do that?

[gnasher]

PhilKing, on 2013-June-15, 09:41, said:

Obviously East should play the ♠8 on the first round to rep HT8, but how many would really do that?

Would you really always play the 8, or would you play them at random, as theory dictates?

Maybe it works to try to always play the 8 in this type of position, because more than half the time you won't remember to do it anyway. Or I won't, anyway.

[gszes]

N Qx in hearts eliminates the possibility that west is raising
with a stiff honor which means w has a trump fit and being
vul vs not probably has a very good reason to think their side
can make 4h (since they are giving the opps the opportunity
to reevaluate using a 30 point deck. After the 4h bid we try to
imagine what p hand (with a single/void) in heart might look
like for their previous x----p actual distribution and hcp is
just about a perfect minimum. If p is somewhat stronger we
surely have great play for 5c or more. If p is minimum there
is a large risk the opps will make 4h when we rate to go down
at most 2 in 5c.

It seems like the right thing to do is merely bid 5c. X seems
wrong because p will most likely leave it in with a minimum
and the risk just became greater. X would make more sense
an MP where its only 1 board but I remain skeptical that the
action is greater than 50% pass seems wrong under all
circumstances.

[JLOGIC]

cherdano, on 2013-June-15, 04:18, said:

Double shows extras with no clear direction. Unfortunately that includes many hands - 18-19 balanced without stopper, one-suited without stopper, takeout.
Unfortunately, that also means I don't know what North should do over 4♥.

The opps are r/w and partner does not have 18-19 bal lol. I don't think it's exploitable to assume that they will not bid this way with 12-13 HCP and a 9 card fit r/w. Given that we know partner has a stiff heart, 5C is just an obvious bid.

[Winstonm]

Codo, on 2013-June-15, 07:30, said:

So north should bid 5 club opposite a possible: AKx, Kx, Axx,Axxx turning a + into a minus?
Why should he? if this had been a3 NT bid or you, okay, change it to AKx,xx,Axx,AKxx...

South decided to double with his hand, now he is in the pass out seat, he heard his partner passing. What else does he need to bid?

If opener holds this he has himself to blame for not clarifying with 3N instead of double, IMO.

[cherdano]

JLOGIC, on 2013-June-15, 14:24, said:

The opps are r/w and partner does not have 18-19 bal lol. I don't think it's exploitable to assume that they will not bid this way with 12-13 HCP and a 9 card fit r/w. Given that we know partner has a stiff heart, 5C is just an obvious bid.

Haha, when I saw you posted in this thread, I thought "Probably I will get a scolding..."
And indeed, well-deserved!