[blackshoe]

 Cascade, on 2013-June-14, 14:16, said:

Even in the US under the GCC Drury is not allowed to be used as a psychic control. Here is the relevant wording:

Drury


Psychic Controls under "Disallowed"

The emphasis of "ANY" is theirs not mine.

I would rule against any pair who used Drury in conjunction with a psychic call.

If it is not a psychic call then it is subject to the other provisions of the regulations, which will often mean that the pair are playing illegal methods.

While I agree with your interpretation of the reg, I would point out that this reading effectively makes it illegal to psych a third seat 1M opening if you agree to play Drury.

[ArtK78]

 Cascade, on 2013-June-14, 14:16, said:

Even in the US under the GCC Drury is not allowed to be used as a psychic control. Here is the relevant wording:

Drury


Psychic Controls under "Disallowed"

The emphasis of "ANY" is theirs not mine.

I would rule against any pair who used Drury in conjunction with a psychic call.

If it is not a psychic call then it is subject to the other provisions of the regulations, which will often mean that the pair are playing illegal methods.

Drury is defined not to be a psychic control. My reference to it being a psychic control is practical. It is defined as a bid used to determine if partner's third or fourth seat opening was made on full values. And, as I understand it, the origins of Drury relate to a player who was known for opening extremely light in third seat. After suffering many disasters when first seat had a good passed hand, the partnership decided to use 2♣ as a checkback to determine how sound opener's third seat opening was. To me, this is the very definition of a psychic control. But it is a psychic control that is now sanctioned as allowable under the ACBL convention regulations. And no one refers to Drury as a psychic control.

The concept of opening one of a major as a psyche in 3rd seat knowing that partner will use Drury to checkback rather than launch into game is interesting. That would be the classic definition of a psychic control, and would be illegal under ACBL convention regulations. But I have not run across it in my many years of playing. And the opening is not free from risk, as I have seen players leap to game in a major over a 3rd seat opening despite the fact that they play Drury.

[blackshoe]

 ArtK78, on 2013-June-14, 14:26, said:

Drury is defined not to be a psychic control.

By whom? Where can I read this definition?

[Cascade]

The definition of psychic control on the ACBL GCC applies to "ANY partnership agreement". Drury is a partnership agreement so therefore it applies to Drury. If Drury (any agreement) is used in conjunction and makes allowance for that psyche then it is by definition a psychic control.

Yes if you open 1M light, light enough so that it is a psyche, and you use Drury then it seems plain that you are disregarding the regulations and that your methods are illegal.

[awm]

A psychic control is a bid that makes special allowances for a psych. The possible psychic control is responder's second pass in the auction:

Pass - 1M
2♣! - 2M
Pass

If this pass is made on a hand that would reasonably make game opposite most of their agreed third seat 1M opening bids, then responder's pass is allowing for a possible psych, and thus illegal.

The point is that it's okay to psych 1M in third seat. It's okay to psych 1M in third seat even if you play Drury. It's not okay to psych 1M in third seat and have a subsequent call that basically announces "I psyched" and forces partner to pass on hands that seem really good opposite a normal 3rd seat 1M opening.

[aguahombre]

 blackshoe, on 2013-June-14, 13:35, said:

If I psyched a 1♥ opening on a 3-1-4-5 six count in third seat, I'd pass partner's 2♣ Drury, whatever our agreements said.

That was my not-so subtle point about somehow knowing responder had 5 hearts.

[ggwhiz]

 blackshoe, on 2013-June-14, 13:35, said:

If I psyched a 1♥ opening on a 3-1-4-5 six count in third seat, I'd pass partner's 2♣ Drury, whatever our agreements said. But then, I have partners who tell me "if you ever psych, I won't play with you again".

I did that 5 years ago (1♠ though, I'm not crazy ) and went for -1400 at the 1 level. Same partnership today but I'm still on probation.

Seems like the 2 of a major response to drury MUST be passed is the problem. Since we pass more 11-12 counts than most it's unworkable for us as we would miss too many games. Maybe disclosure along the lines of we open all(most all) 11 counts should be included with an alert of the drury response agreement?

If you used these methods to control psyches you can't bid games with min openings opposite the right passed hands and probably psyche often enough here to be exposed as using Drury for shady reasons.

[barmar]

 blackshoe, on 2013-June-14, 14:23, said:

While I agree with your interpretation of the reg, I would point out that this reading effectively makes it illegal to psych a third seat 1M opening if you agree to play Drury.

I thought Drury is only considered a psychic control if you agree to open a psychic 1M with a weak hand with long clubs, planning on passing the 2♣ response. This is similar to psyching a 2♣ opening with a weak hand with long diamonds, planning on passing partner's almost-forced 2♦ response (illegal in many jurisdictions because they prohibit psyching strong 2♣).

[blackshoe]

If you agree to open that hand with that bid, it's not a psych. However, if "weak" includes "less than 8 HCP", it's an illegal agreement.

[mycroft]

...and that's the reason behind barring psychic controls in the ACBL, explicitly with the definition that "ANY call that ... makes allowance for the psychic". Not because it's catering to a psych, but that those calls that are being catered to are part of their partnership agreements for the calls, and almost always those would be illegal partnership agreements if they didn't try to bypass it by using the P word.

[jfnrl]

There are some differences between french (and I suppose belgian) regulation and ebu - acbl regulations.
In ebu-land you must have 8 HCP to open even in third seat.
In France you can open 1S en 3rd with AKJxx = xxx = xxx = xx
in any event (including the lowest level).
There is no limitation in intermediate+ events.

But drury is not a psyche control as it is not a universal raise for interesting passed hand.
If partner opens 1S in 3rd and you hold Txxx = x = xx = AKQxx
you will (and have to...) reply 4S in SEF (système d'enchères français : french 5M standard).

Drury indicates a 3 cards raise usually (4 cards in a balanced hand).
So, if the partner as a 8 - 10 HCP hand, there is no chance to win a game.
If 2M shows the weakest hand, pass is a logical conclusion.

[aguahombre]

Our psyche control is to NOT use Drury. Or is that a psyche inhibitor?

[Cthulhu D]

 blackshoe, on 2013-June-14, 13:35, said:

If I psyched a 1♥ opening on a 3-1-4-5 six count in third seat, I'd pass partner's 2♣ Drury, whatever our agreements said. But then, I have partners who tell me "if you ever psych, I won't play with you again".

I think psyching sometimes has to be optimal.

[Cascade]

 jfnrl, on 2013-June-23, 11:15, said:

But drury is not a psyche control as it is not a universal raise for interesting passed hand.
If partner opens 1S in 3rd and you hold Txxx = x = xx = AKQxx
you will (and have to...) reply 4S in SEF (système d'enchères français : french 5M standard).

I don't understand this "have to". Who said? The laws allow me to make any call so long as it is not based on concealed agreement.

[aguahombre]

 Cthulhu D, on 2013-June-23, 19:57, said:

I think psyching sometimes has to be optimal.

Are you talking about game theory, or do you mean sometimes they are successful?

[Cthulhu D]

 aguahombre, on 2013-June-23, 20:56, said:

Are you talking about game theory, or do you mean sometimes they are successful?

Both. The problem is bridge laws prevent you from actually discussing this with your partner, but safe in the knowledge that he doesn't read these forums: There are clearly times when it's better to psyche and indeed you should probably psyche (like when you have nothing third in green vs red playing a system with light openings), and psyching sometimes gives you an advantage if opponents are concerned you are a 'psycher'

This is something I do badly, but say I'm playing a ridiculous system like tangerine club where we open 8-9 counts in 1st/2nd, and it it is passed around to me third in NV vs V, I'm pretty sure I should bid 1S with

S: x
H: xxx
D: xxx
C: Txxxxx

[jfnrl]

answer to Cascade

If you hold Txxxx = xx = x = AKQxx
(sorry, in my original post, there were 12 cards in the hand : a Sx was missing)
you are allowed to reply whatever you want
but you are not allowed to understand that your partner has psyched or overbidden
example : you choose 2S (auction pass pass 1S pass 2S all pass)
It's OK if partner holds AKxxx = xxx = xx = xxx
But if he holds x = Axxx = Qxxxx = Jxx, you will be asked by TD how you knew that your partner was psyche and your contract could be convert into 4SX.

(Assuming that the missing x is a Dx, the psyche works as the auction goes : pass pass 1S pass 3C pass pass ?
3C : maximum passed hand, 4 spades and 5 good clubs forcing to 3S
And the 4th seat is in trouble with AKQx = Kxxx = Axxx = x)

[Cascade]

 jfnrl, on 2013-June-24, 02:37, said:

answer to Cascade

If you hold Txxxx = xx = x = AKQxx
(sorry, in my original post, there were 12 cards in the hand : a Sx was missing)
you are allowed to reply whatever you want
but you are not allowed to understand that your partner has psyched or overbidden
example : you choose 2S (auction pass pass 1S pass 2S all pass)
It's OK if partner holds AKxxx = xxx = xx = xxx
But if he holds x = Axxx = Qxxxx = Jxx, you will be asked by TD how you knew that your partner was psyche and your contract could be convert into 4SX.

(Assuming that the missing x is a Dx, the psyche works as the auction goes : pass pass 1S pass 3C pass pass ?
3C : maximum passed hand, 4 spades and 5 good clubs forcing to 3S
And the 4th seat is in trouble with AKQx = Kxxx = Axxx = x)

And what if your answer is that you didn't know you just chose to bid 2♠? Which law has been violated?

[jfnrl]

 Cascade, on 2013-June-24, 04:52, said:

And what if your answer is that you didn't know you just chose to bid 2♠? Which law has been violated?

I am not a TD, but I suppose that French TDs applies the last sentence of law 40 C 1 "If the Director judges there is undisclosed knowledge that has damaged the opponents he shall adjust the score and may award a procedural penalty".
No prove of a violation of the laws or regulations is requested. An assumption is enough.

[blackshoe]

 jfnrl, on 2013-June-26, 08:00, said:

I am not a TD, but I suppose that French TDs applies the last sentence of law 40 C 1 "If the Director judges there is undisclosed knowledge that has damaged the opponents he shall adjust the score and may award a procedural penalty".
No prove of a violation of the laws or regulations is requested. An assumption is enough.

No, it's not. The TD is required to rule on the basis of the preponderance of the evidence available, not on assumption.