[awm]

Playing 2/1 GF:

1♠ - 2♣
2♥ - 2NT
3♦

What does 3♦ show?

[mike777]

Perhaps 5440, not sure there is a big need to show 5431.

Perhaps with a weak 4 card major but strong d's where 5d would have a better play say....


AKxxx...xxxx....AKJx..void

which would be xtras for me.

--

Of course some may rebid 2d with that example rather than 2h so...

[nige1]

awm, on 2013-June-09, 12:56, said:

1♠ - 2♣
2♥ - 2NT
3♦
Playing 2/1 GF, What does 3♦ show?

IMO 3♦ shows

• 5440 or
• 5530 or
• 6430 or
• a strong hand, seeking more description from partner, that does not want to limit itself.

[mike777]

nige1, on 2013-June-09, 17:45, said:

IMO 3♦ shows

• 5440 or
• 5530 or
• 6430 or
• a strong hand that does not want to limit itself.

this approach seems rather complicated...to bid a 3 card suit rather than rebid 5h or 6s

[wangzhi123]

awm, on 2013-June-09, 12:56, said:

Playing 2/1 GF:

1♠ - 2♣
2♥ - 2NT
3♦

What does 3♦ show?

[wangzhi123]

no♦ stoppter？

[mike777]

wangzhi123, on 2013-June-10, 00:11, said:

no♦ stoppter？

one can see the confusion.....one plays no d stopper ...other plays 4 card suit and nonmin.

good grief!

[rhm]

Good question.

2/1 is not well defined.
To some extent it depends what 2♣ shows and the rest of your agreements.
If you play an artificial 2NT response to 1♠ (usually some sort of Jacoby) and 1NT as semi-forcing all balanced game forcing hands tend to start with 2♣.
Also how does a 2♣ response differ from a 2♦ response?
I like to play that a 2♦ response to a major shows a good 5 card suit.

In this case responder has not necessarily shown a strong club suit.
Responder likely has four cards in clubs but not necessarily strong ones.
Also what does responder rebid with 6♣-5♦ in the minors over 2♥?

I think 3♦ should simply show shortage in clubs with no extra length in the majors, most likely 5431.
Restricting a cheap bid to an unlikely 5440 is inefficient, though follow ups which can distinguish 5440 from 5431 would be useful.
You could use 3♥ as a relay with step responses 3♠=5431 any strength, and higher steps 5440 with various strength.
If you restrict the bid to 5440 it will occur less than one time in six compared to the above suggestion.

Rainer Herrmann

[PhilKing]

rhm, on 2013-June-10, 04:03, said:

Good question.

2/1 is not well defined.
To some extent it depends what 2♣ shows and the rest of your agreements.
If you play an artificial 2NT response to 1♠ (usually some sort of Jacoby) and 1NT as semi-forcing all balanced game forcing hands tend to start with 2♣.
Also how does a 2♣ response differ from a 2♦ response?
I like to play that a 2♦ response to a major shows a good 5 card suit.

In this case responder has not necessarily shown a strong club suit.
Responder likely has four cards in clubs but not necessarily strong ones.
Also what does responder rebid with 6♣-5♦ in the minors over 2♥?

I think 3♦ should simply show shortage in clubs with no extra length in the majors, most likely 5431.
Restricting a cheap bid to an unlikely 5440 is inefficient, though follow ups which can distinguish 5440 from 5431 would be useful.
You could use 3♥ as a relay with step responses 3♠=5431 any strength, and higher steps 5440 with various strength.
If you restrict the bid to 5440 it will occur less than one time in six compared to the above suggestion.

Rainer Herrmann

I don't like the frequency argument.

If I bid 3♦ on a 5431 shape, I feel this will be way more helpful to the opponents in terms of helping them find a lead than it will be to partner. If I had this agreement I would hope it never came up! If I were to come up with a non-standard agreement, "5431 slam try" would make some sense. Now a raise to 4NT would promise 5422.

3♦ showing 5440 may be infrequent, but has the potential to get us to otherwise unbiddable slams (for those of us who show hearts on the second round with that pattern). Putting it all together, optimal may be two-way, slightly different to your way: 5431 slam try or 5440 any, but a minimum 5431 should keep that information under his hat.

[rhm]

PhilKing, on 2013-June-10, 04:14, said:

I don't like the frequency argument.

If I bid 3♦ on a 5431 shape, I feel this will be way more helpful to the opponents in terms of helping them find a lead than it will be to partner. If I had this agreement I would hope it never came up! If I were to come up with a non-standard agreement, "5431 slam try" would make some sense. Now a raise to 4NT would promise 5422.

3♦ showing 5440 may be infrequent, but has the potential to get us to otherwise unbiddable slams (for those of us who show hearts on the second round with that pattern). Putting it all together, optimal may be two-way, slightly different to your way: 5431 slam try or 5440 any, but a minimum 5431 should keep that information under his hat.

I don't mind your method.
This difference is minor though. If you raise straight to 3NT with minimum 5431 there is not much you hide.
First you will be dummy. So it affects the opening lead only.
Second assuming you would bid something else with shortage in diamonds, your 3NT direct raise hand is known to be either 5422 or 5431 anyway.

Rainer Herrmann

[FrancesHinden]

I voted 'some other' because I think it must be either 5422 or 5431 (or 5440 possibly) so it does say something about diamonds. With another card in any other suit I would rebid that suit.

[hatchett]

I don't understand why you would want to rebid 3d on a 5422 shape ever. How do you find a 4-4 diamond fit in this auction

[straube]

I think this might depend on what 1S-2C, 2H-3D means. Is there enough of a consensus for us to say there is a standard meaning for this? Absent an agreement, I might interpret 3D as a 5/6 hand because it consumes so much space. A better agreement I think would be a stuck bid. For example responder could have Ax AKx xxx Axxxx.

If 3D is a stuck bid then 1S-2C, 2H-2N has to handle the diamond/club reverser hands as well as various balanced hands.

I think I'd reserve 1S-2C, 2H-2N, 3D for the 5440. I'm giving up on finding the 5-3 diamond fits at the 3-level. I want to find the 4-4 diamond fits when responder has some slam interest or when we belong in 5D rather than 3N (rare but possible). Unless responder has 5D/6C, rebidding 3D with 5431 only profits when responder has a shaky club stopper and we belong in a 5-2 spade fit or when we want to be in slam on a 7-cd trump fit. I think both of these are low value targets.

I'd like 3D to show a little better than a minimum, but not necessarily slam interest. If I have Axxx AKxx Qxxx void that ought to do.