[mike777]

From Bridge Today Mag.
NV-VS-VUL

1D=2C=X=XX
2S=3C=4S=5C
??=PP=??


1) is pass forcing over 5C? Why?

2) If opener passes what is your bid with:
KXXXX=KJ98XX=X=X, AND WHY?

3) AS OPENER WHAT IS YOUR BID OVER 5C WITH:
JT9X=QX=AKJXXX=T, AND WHY?

[pclayton]

I read the same article, and I don't think its forcing. If responder can have the distributional 5-5, then this is the only way to bid this hand.

Like Larry Cohen says, if the waiter can tell if a pass is forcing (my teammates say the caddy), then its forcing. Otherwise its not.

[inquiry]

The pass is not forcing. Why? Because I don't play all game bids lead to a forcing pass situation. Read Robson/Segal on forcing pass (their book is available on line in PDF format).

What would I bid with the SIX-FIVE hand? The old saying is with 6-5 come alive. I think, however, that I will hit 5 CLUBS. I have hearts, presumably partner has diamonds, and we both have spades. This doesn't mean we will beat it however. I am always ready to explain to partner that if they don't make some of their doubled contracts we are not doubling enough. Seeing me double here, you can see that I get to say this a lot. :-)

I think pass with opener;s hand over 5!Cs is right, but I would be sorely tempted at this particular vul to bid one more for the road.

[han]

Clearly not forcing in my opinion, and I think I'd pass with both hands. (may depend on the form of scoring)

[shanbari]

1) pass is not forcing by me either. but implied that parnter could bid on 5s with both diamond and spade double fit with shortage in club.

2) as i reading the auction, the opps's XX shows 4 card hearts most likely, otherwise he would choose 3c raise in the first place.
i always try to use the LAW and the 5 level decision, opps has 10 or 11 club fit,
and we had most 9 spade fit, total winner is 20. plus some downgrade adjustment due to HJ98, singleton diamond in partner's diamond suit.

so i would choose defense. plus penalty double.

3) i have no idea, tough decision on the table. probably Pass.


hope it all make sense.

shan,

[Yzerman]

mike777, on Jan 7 2005, 04:28 PM, said:

From Bridge Today Mag.
NV-VS-VUL

1D=2C=X=XX
2S=3C=4S=5C
??=PP=??


1) is pass forcing over 5C? Why?

2) If opener passes what is your bid with:
KXXXX=KJ98XX=X=X, AND WHY?

3) AS OPENER WHAT IS YOUR BID OVER 5C WITH:
JT9X=QX=AKJXXX=T, AND WHY?

NEAT PROBLEM -

I would pass with openers hand. I probably take cheap insurance with responders hand in 5S give the lack of defense (aces), the 9 card fit and 65 shape and who knows 5S might be a maker (u never know). The biggest risk I think bidding 5S runs is that opps might bid 6C, and occasionally (but that would be VERY rare) it will make. It is my belief in the long run, competing to 5S w/the combined hands will win more often than lose (@ MP I would consider pass as an avenue to a + score and IMPs I would bid as 5S is the action least likely to create swing).

I commend all the people that pass 5C, I think pass is a great option and when 5C is NOT making you are getting nice score however I just cant resist )))

MAL

[Winstonm]

Unless partner has lost his mind, pass is forcing. First, he made a negative double at the 2-level, indicating usually 8-10 HCP; next, he freely jumped to game after your simple 2S bid. All indications is this is "our" hand and the opps cannot play at the 5-level undoubled.

[luke warm]

some very good players have said pass isn't forcing, so that's most likely correct... however, i'd play it as forcing and i'd pass with opener's hand... with responder's hand, i'd bid 5♠ over partner's pass, because 1) the pass is forcing and 2) i can't double

[flytoox]

At least it is not clear to me. White vs Red I tend to agree it is not forcing. However if we are vul, I think it should be forcing.

[helium]

hi:) nice problem.

1. no this is one of VERY few auctions where pass is NOT forcing imo.



2.pass



3.dbl . and for more then one reason:

1. have ace king in my opening suit
2.I dont want partner to bid 5♠
3.I dont want to let opps play this undoubled (since pass isnt forcing)
4. Im agressiv:)

[han]

I'm surprised to see that some of you consider this forcing. The jump to 4S does not show a good hand imo. I think that pass should only be forcing when it is absolutely clear, a jump to game is not enough. In fact, I think that this jump usually denies a lot of high card points.

[HeartA]

It is not forcing and I would pass.

[flytoox]

Hannie, on Jan 8 2005, 08:31 PM, said:

I'm surprised to see that some of you consider this forcing. The jump to 4S does not show a good hand imo. I think that pass should only be forcing when it is absolutely clear, a jump to game is not enough. In fact, I think that this jump usually denies a lot of high card points.

1)Consider the same question but without the redbl. Would you think it is forcing?
2)What pd should do with balanced game force hand after the 2C overcall?

[Flame]

ID say this, i believe its tehoretically best to play this as non forcing, but i think it make life alot easier if it would be forcing and even my not too solid but still regular partnership , i will think its forcing.

[mike777]

Here are some expert opinions:
1) Cohen=N
Kanter=Y
Lawrence=Y
Martel=Y
Woolsey=Y
Koskish=y
Granovetter=Y

2) Kantar=5s
Woolsey=5s
Kokish=??? very close
Martel= very close
Granovetter=5s
Cohen=P


3) Cohen=P
Martel=X
Woolsey=P
Lawrence=X
Kantar=X

[helene_t]

I don't get it: Woolsey considers this forcing but would pass with responder's hand?

Anyway, I would play this as forcing. Reponder bids 4♠ to make so it can't be good to defend 5♣ undoubled.

[firechief]

woolsey said he'd pass with opener's hand, not responder's. I'd bid to 5s with the responding hand. The auction really sounds forcing, but if the responding hand happens to hold all offense and no defense, I don't think he has to double (may pass). If the opener has enough defense to beat them, he'll double, so if responder is really weak, he isn't losing much when partner passes (assuming pass is forcing). I think opener has a very tough problem over 5c. I'd be sorely tempted to just pass, because 6 cards in diamonds doesn't mean 2 cashing tricks. Take away one of those diamonds, and I'd double quickly.
Joel

[Winstonm]

There is an interesting method devised by an Italian player (name escapes me at the moment) where in forcing pass situations the normal meanings are reversed.

So: Double=I have a hand willing to bid on but you may convert.
Pass= I would prefer to penalize the opponents but you may bid on.
Pass/Pull= I have slam aspirations.

This system describes the intent of the immediate hand but allows for the input of partner. Seems a good approach.

WinstonM

[Double !]

I never get these situations correct, probably because of poor judgement and having learned the approach that dbl constitued a warning to P against bidding on (maybe even have wasted values in Clubs?). I like the above idea of reversing the meanings....then I can blame the bad result on partner.....(laughter) but, seriously folks, how does one distinguish between the hand with wasted values in clubs, the "no clear cut action" hand with club losers but no wasted values in clubs, and the hands with a stiff/void in their suit without extra hcp values per se (not adverse to P bidding 5) in terms of bidding over 5♣? I am sooo bad at this kind of situation.