[nigel_k]

---

Expert partner, no special agreements. Your call.

[lmilne]

Pretty gross. I guess the only alternatives are 4NT and 5NT, barring some hero 5/6m bid to protect the Kx of hearts.

If we assume we're off the ace of hearts, we need a fairly suitable hand opposite to make slam, and this is ignoring any possibly bad breaks. I wish partner would be able to bid 5NT over our 4NT sometimes, but with him having at most two aces, I don't think this is all that likely.

Anyway, I'm just bidding 4NT - I really don't like to guess to bid slam in these situations unless I think it's a fairly decent favourite. I'm obviously paying off to Kxxx x AKxx KQxx and other such completely normal hands for partner to have.

[gszes]

difficult to imagine p with a hand worse than say Kxxx x AKxx KQxx
for their direct x of 4h at unfavorable. We give p a lot of latitude
when they do things in the po seat but in direct chair they still have a
p to back them up. For ex after 4h p p this hand can bid 4n on its own
in po seat and p has to realize your 4n was under great duress since
the bidding would end if you passed. The same level of pressure does
not exist in the direct seat and it is generally much more dangerous in
direct seat with a still unlimited opponent to your left. In the PO seat
the bidding will generally let you know if p has some values or not.
Anyway in this case

5n

and let p pick the best minor. Preempts work keep doing them.

[mcphee]

My vul partner isn't bonkers and I suspect we have the values for slam, but I am not at all sure it will be any walk in the park played from partners side. I like to imagine the worst hand partner would say dble and I am willing to assume we do not have 2 heart losers, but it is not clear about a possible minor suit loser facing wasted spade values. I may regret my choice, but I will take the low road with 4N and pass 5 of a minor. Sorry if I misjudged partner.

[dake50]

My vul partner isn't bonkers and I suspect we have the values for slam, but I am not at all sure it will be any walk in the park played from partners side. I like to imagine the worst hand partner would say dble and I am willing to assume we do not have 2 heart losers, but it is not clear about a possible minor suit loser facing wasted spade values. I may regret my choice, but I will take the low road with 4N and pass 5 of a minor. Sorry if I misjudged partner. -- mcphee

*** How much more would you need to try 6m/6Nt?
Add DK? CJ10? HA instead of HKx?
5m is awful tame with 5 controls 13 and 5-5.

[Trinidad]

It depends on the opponents.

Against most opponents I would bid 4NT, raising my partner to slam. This might be down in trick 2 after a heart lead.

Against some opponents I would bid 5♦. It is almost certain that they will compete to 5♥. (In the post mortem they will say "We were non vul vs vul".) Then I will bid 6♣ and rightside the slam.

Rik

[rhm]

6♦

Rainer Herrmann

[wank]

forcing to 6 is tripping imo. far too likely to be off a slow minor loser with nowhere to park it plus the ace of hearts, vul partner or no vul partner.

as we don't know which minor to bid and might even go off in 5 from p's hand, i'll content myself with floating the double. there's a good chance dummy will be dead and we'll make our k of h.

[benlessard]

It happen more often with H but its another case where 4Nt followed by 5D can be to play and 5D directly is somewhat slammish.

The usual case is

(4S)--X--(P)--??

4nt follwed by 5H is weaker and a direct 5H slammish

In anycase i bid 5D, I believe that rightsiding is to likely to save a trick and i dont want to commit to slam.

Situation of 2NT scrambling are similar

1m-(2S)-P-(P)
X--(P)--??

3H directly should be foward going while 2NT (scrambling) followed by 3H should be weak.

[FrancesHinden]

dake50, on 2013-June-01, 08:48, said:

My vul partner isn't bonkers and I suspect we have the values for slam, but I am not at all sure it will be any walk in the park played from partners side. I like to imagine the worst hand partner would say dble and I am willing to assume we do not have 2 heart losers, but it is not clear about a possible minor suit loser facing wasted spade values. I may regret my choice, but I will take the low road with 4N and pass 5 of a minor. Sorry if I misjudged partner. -- mcphee

*** How much more would you need to try 6m/6Nt?
Add DK? CJ10? HA instead of HKx?
5m is awful tame with 5 controls 13 and 5-5.

KQxx
xx
AKxx
KJx

4H?

[mikeh]

I generally assume partner has approximately the values for a strong 1N, but short(ish) in hearts. Would I consider slam opposite such an opening hand? No. Slam may well make, but bitter experience tells me that simply bidding the right game here is where the smart money is. I bid 4N to avoid playing a 5-3 minor on a board where a bad trump break may doom a 5 level game in that fit.

[cherdano]

gszes, on 2013-June-01, 05:54, said:

difficult to imagine p with a hand worse than say Kxxx x AKxx KQxx
for their direct x of 4h at unfavorable.

How about KQxx x AKxx Kxxx?

[rhm]

cherdano, on 2013-June-02, 17:02, said:

How about KQxx x AKxx Kxxx?

So there are a lot of hands where even game does not make and a lot of hands where slam is lay-down.
What does this prove?

Nothing!

Rainer Herrmann

[wank]

rhm, on 2013-June-03, 03:49, said:

So there are a lot of hands where even game does not make and a lot of hands where slam is lay-down.
What does this prove?

Nothing!

Rainer Herrmann

it doesn't prove much, but it implies the odds aren't in favour of making 6.

[cherdano]

rhm, on 2013-June-03, 03:49, said:

So there are a lot of hands where even game does not make and a lot of hands where slam is lay-down.
What does this prove?

My point was mostly that thinking about hands where partner has two high cards opposite our lengths, and only one opposite our shortness is a bit misleading. And claiming "his hand couldn't be worse" is either disingenuous or clueless.
In any case, 6♦ is actually pretty good opposite my example - they don't always lead a heart, clubs might be 2-2, and even if not, chances for the black suit squeeze are pretty good. In particular, it's much better than 6♣, so if I had proposed a direct 6♦, I would like this example...
I would still think that exactly 11 tricks is more likely than 12 or more, especially if you factor in hands where partner has a heart doubleton. But it's pretty close.

[lmilne]

rhm, on 2013-June-03, 03:49, said:

So there are a lot of hands where even game does not make and a lot of hands where slam is lay-down.
What does this prove?

Nothing!

Rainer Herrmann

...Well, it might get some people thinking about whether we are going to make slam enough of the time to bid it, especially if we chose to jump in our worse-quality suit when we have a bid which rates to get us to the best fit much more of the time (5NT).

To make myself clear, I really don't understand 6♦. If you are bidding it to protect your king of hearts, assuming partner has two low hearts, slam doesn't that great regardless...

edit: to echo and agree with other posters, even if your partner isn't supposed to be weaker than Kxxx x AKxx KQxx (which I specifically said I was happy to go +620 with), he can have similar strength hands with honors in the wrong location where slam is bad or no play. +620 can win on this board, -100 isn't going to win very often at all.

[WesleyC]

4NT, passing 5m.

Some of the time you'll lose the first two tricks. Even if they only have one heart to cash, I don't like my chances of playing Qxxxx opposite Axxx for no losers.

[yunling]

5NT and I don't think there is much point in rightsiding the contract here, since if p have more than 1 heart, then it is very likely that opp can get a ruff.

[dake50]

KQxx
xx
AKxx
KJx

4H?

Jxxx
x
AKxx
AKxx

6m?

[Fluffy]

You will have a funny time explaining partner that 5/6♦ was meant to rightside the contract if he happens to have a little offshape KQxx Axx Kx KQxx (even club slam goes down played from this side)


call me crazy, but I have some aversion of playing 5-2 fit at the 5-6 level missing HJ109xx on the suit. The only question on this deal is to bid 4 or 5NT, and I think 4NT now stands out since we could have a forcing pass available next to avoid decisions.