[32519]

benlessard, on 2013-June-01, 09:36, said:

There is a pair in the CNTC (canadian championship that was played this week & the final are today) playing Misiry preempt/transfers. Ive never played them but I believe they are a great improvement over plain transfer preempt (wich im not that fond of). I believe 2 way bid are safer than what people think since its so rare that your wrong on guessing partner hands.

I have seen my share of 1 level contract making 2 or 3 while making slam if playing in the 2nd suit. So at one point some of the 2 suiter have to be opened with a forcing opening even if 2C is your only forcing openeing.

A transfer pre-empt so far appears to be the best solution. If you have a single suited hand and a normal weak pre-empt, pass is easy after the transfer. With a big 2-suiter you can now bid the 2nd suit after the transfer is completed. Partner must choose the suit to play. Do you use 2NT to transfer to 3♣? Probably, yes.

[Stephen Tu]

32519, on 2013-June-02, 00:03, said:

So how is partner supposed to know it's 2-suited until I get a chance to show the 2nd suit before P passes, especially after 2♣-2♥ (double negative). I can show only 1 suit now before P passes.

Partner shouldn't be able to pass suit rebids! 2c-2h-2nt can be passed. Any suit should be F1. If you rebid a suit below game, after partner has shown a double negative, like 2c-2h-2s-?-3s, that's passable. But any new suit by 2c opener should be F1 at least.

[nige1]

nige1, on 2013-May-31, 14:39, said:

On BBF, I suggested a 3N conventional opener for strong two-suiters and other hands, but the follow-ups were complex and hard to remember.

32519, on 2013-June-02, 00:12, said:

Care to post that suggestion here again? We got lots of people here who can help you to simplify the follow ups.

FWIW, this is a link: 3N for aces

[32519]

benlessard, on 2013-June-01, 09:36, said:

There is a pair in the CNTC (canadian championship that was played this week & the final are today) playing Misiry preempt/transfers. Ive never played them but I believe they are a great improvement over plain transfer preempt (wich im not that fond of). I believe 2 way bid are safer than what people think since its so rare that your wrong on guessing partner hands.

I have seen my share of 1 level contract making 2 or 3 while making slam if playing in the 2nd suit. So at one point some of the 2 suiter have to be opened with a forcing opening even if 2C is your only forcing openeing.

Han suggested Modified Mislry. Simplify the original idea by transferring into the lower of the big 2-suiter and then bid the higher ranking one after that. Now you got both suits in play immediately and responder chooses the best one.

[FrancesHinden]

32519, on 2013-June-02, 00:03, said:

So how is partner supposed to know it's 2-suited until I get a chance to show the 2nd suit before P passes, especially after 2♣-2♥ (double negative). I can show only 1 suit now before P passes.

32519, on 2013-June-02, 00:26, said:

This thread isn't about the specific hand posted. It's about 2-suited hands in general. How do I show the 2nd suit before P passes?

By telling partner not to pass?
A 2C opening traditionally shows a game forcing hand (or 23-24 balanced). That means partner won't pass.
Some people play that it's possible to stop in 3M after opening 2C if opener bids and rebids his suit, but that isn't a problem if you have a two-suiter.

[Antrax]

To be serious, the problem I really encountered putting strong two-suiters in my 2♣ was that once you're distributional, other hands also tend to be distributional. That meant the 2♣ opener hand even less room than usual because I would get preempted by one of the three opponents. Knowing you're in a game force is nice, but it doesn't really help if you only get to show your second suit at the 4-level, because that makes it impossible to look for slam, at least in the simple system we play.
In reality I do open them at the 1-level and expect the distribution-ness of the hand to protect me against all pass. Occasionally I get a 0% board and live with it.

[32519]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-June-02, 12:50, said:

By telling partner not to pass?
A 2C opening traditionally shows a game forcing hand (or 23-24 balanced). That means partner won't pass.
Some people play that it's possible to stop in 3M after opening 2C if opener bids and rebids his suit, but that isn't a problem if you have a two-suiter.

Many play that after 2♣-2♦, that whenever opener bids a suit after 2♦ the auction is forcing to 3M or 4m. This works fine when the 2♦ bid is "waiting" and does not say anything in particular about responder's hand strength. So you should be able to show both suits. The problem occurs after 2♣-2♥ (double negative). Here responder wants to get out as soon as possible.

[blackshoe]

32519, on 2013-June-02, 00:15, said:

I don't want to give up my 2♦ bid which I use for my "Revised and Updated Version" of the Multi.

I suppose everyone has their pet convention.

[Stephen Tu]

32519, on 2013-June-02, 23:14, said:

Many play that after 2♣-2♦, that whenever opener bids a suit after 2♦ the auction is forcing to 3M or 4m. This works fine when the 2♦ bid is "waiting" and does not say anything in particular about responder's hand strength. So you should be able to show both suits. The problem occurs after 2♣-2♥ (double negative). Here responder wants to get out as soon as possible.

Responder shouldn't want to get out, he is in a force! Opener is showing a hand within a trick of game, OR STRONGER, responder shouldn't be taking views that just because he has one queen or less that game can't be made. Often just a fit with one of opener's suits is enough to produce that extra trick, even with no HCP. Even if responder doesn't have a fit for opener's first shown suit, he has to bid again, to give a chance for opener to maybe show a 2nd suit.

If you feel like you are going down one too often after 2c-2h auctions, perhaps you should wait for stronger hands to open 2c on.

The main purpose of 2c-2h double neg isn't to stop in partscores. It's a warning to opener to not expect anything in high cards when responder subsequently raises opener, so not to try anything beyond game without a ton extra since responder can't have much more than a Q + a stray jack or two.

[Vampyr]

blackshoe, on 2013-June-03, 00:20, said:

I suppose everyone has their pet convention.

And some have a menagerie.

[mikeh]

32519, on 2013-June-02, 23:14, said:

Many play that after 2♣-2♦, that whenever opener bids a suit after 2♦ the auction is forcing to 3M or 4m. This works fine when the 2♦ bid is "waiting" and does not say anything in particular about responder's hand strength. So you should be able to show both suits. The problem occurs after 2♣-2♥ (double negative). Here responder wants to get out as soon as possible.

I think the main reason you are struggling with your methods is that your methods are deeply flawed: you assume that 2C is only forcing to 2S or 3H, and then try to come up with some method to cater to powerhouse opening hands that can't risk responder passing after making a 2H immediate negative response.

You would be far better advised to recognize that opener's bids of 2S and 3H, after a 2C opening, are FORCING.

I think Stephen put it well.

Do that, and your problems evaporate. This might mean that you need to strengthen your 2C opening bids if you find that you are failing in too many contracts, but as a 'strong' 2C opener for many years I can tell you that I have very, very rarely missed any good game contracts by opening heavy at the one level. As it happens, I have moved towards lighter 2C openings for other reasons, but not for fear of missing game contracts.

[Zelandakh]

Possible solutions:-
1. use a conventional opening method catering to strong 2-suiters. MisIry is one such method and there are others if you search around a little.
2. adopt a second forcing opening and dedicate one or more of the rebids to awkward 2-suiters.
3. make your 2NT (minors) opening weak or strong in split-range UNT style. Worry about the other 2-suiters when they become an issue.
4. switch to Polish Club (which has sequences for some strong 2-suiters if the opps do not intervene).
5. switch to a strong club, allowing you to show both suits lower (if the opps do not intervene).
6. just open these hands at the 1 level trusting that it does not get passed out.

Having partner pass a game-forcing bid should not be among the list of problems.