[32519]

This thread has been started as an offshoot to the Strong 2 Club Opening thread.

 Antrax, on 2013-May-28, 20:57, said:

Having read BBF extensively, I was convinced that you should never open 2♣ on two-suited hands, instead opting to open them at the 1-level. The problem was that people in the club hadn't read BBF, so we would sometimes get 1m swish. To solve that dilemma, I've come up with a tweak where with strong hands, you open 1m while staring intently at your partner. This has two upsides: the force of your gaze might make your partner more likely to bid, especially if you start frowning when it seems like he's reaching for a green card, and avoiding eye contact with the opponents signals weakness, which would encourage them to overcall on trash.

 mycroft, on 2013-May-30, 10:19, said:

Last night I got lots of really difficult hands to bid, including one that could have reasonably be opened 2♣ (I didn't because it was a massive heart-club two-suiter, but I was really hoping partner didn't pass!).

NB!! This thread is NOT ABOUT the hand below specifically!! It's about big 2-suited hands in general.

 TylerE, on 2013-May-28, 17:18, said:

So What do you open with:

xxx
-
AKQJx
AKQJx

?

Showing big 2-suiters is something that crossed mind as well, albeit only briefly. How do you adequately show them? Antrax’s solution is obviously tongue-in-cheek, but what do you do with these hands that you potentially want to force to game? If you include them in your 2♣ bid you need a way to show the 2nd suit before partner passes.

This post has been edited.

[Vampyr]

 32519, on 2013-May-31, 00:36, said:

but what do you do with these hands that you potentially want to force to game? If you include them in your 2♣ bid you need a way to show the 2nd suit before partner passes.

When will partner pass? Suit-oriented 2♣ openers are normally GF.

[mcphee]

The idea to bear in mind is the ability to show both suits below the level of 3NT so partner is able to make a sound judgement. Opening this hand 2C will never let you do that. The next thing to appreciate is that if you open this hand 1D do you really think everyone will pass?

[Cyberyeti]

 mcphee, on 2013-May-31, 05:37, said:

The idea to bear in mind is the ability to show both suits below the level of 3NT so partner is able to make a sound judgement. Opening this hand 2C will never let you do that. The next thing to appreciate is that if you open this hand 1D do you really think everyone will pass?

Only if you really agonized before opening 1♦, then I might read what was going on and pass it out. Open 1♦ in tempo and you're probably OK.

[mycroft]

as the people above said, it's not that you need to be able to show both suits before partner passes (after opening 2♣), it's being able to show both suits before 4♦ (which might have bypassed the best scoring, or last making, contract; and even if it doesn't, there's very little room to both agree on a suit and investigate 4/5, 6, or 7, and whether it should be NT).

Having said that, finding a better way to handle hands that come up once every 100 sessions - sure, I just said we get 2♣ hands once a session or so, and maybe 1 in 3 there are already problems; but you have to both decide not to open 2♣ *and* have partner pass (or just not believe you're as strong as you are after 1♥-<something>-3♣. Yeah, that does happen). That's about once every 100 sessions - is so far down my priority list, even though they're spectacular failures when they happen, that I may never get there. What do I do about 4=4=(4-K) 16 counts when it goes 1m-(1♥)-p-p is much higher and they *never* come up.

[nige1]

Some players have adopted Antrax's recommendation
IMO, however, you should open 2♣.
On BBF, I suggested a 3N conventional opener for strong two-suiters and other hands, but the follow-ups were complex and hard to remember.

[blackshoe]

In Romex, game forcing hands with primary clubs (or hearts, or spades) are opened 2♣, and game forcing hands with primary diamonds are opened 2♦. Responses to 2♣ are control showing through 3♣, responses to 2♦ are 2♥ with 0-9 or so and no slam interest opposite 21-22 balanced, which is also included in 2♦, and 2♠ is 10+, slam interest. Higher responses to 2♦ generally show weak hands and are based on the assumption opener has the balanced 21-22.

After 2♣-2♦, 3♣ shows a club two suiter, 3♦ asks for the second suit, follow ons are natural. 3♦ shows a club one-suiter. Bidding after 2♦-2♥ is similar, but 2♠ by opener at this point shows a diamond-spade two suiter. IIRC 3NT after the 3♦ inquiry shows the other minor; 4 of that minor would show that suit, and deny interest in a NT game.

This doesn't seem complex or hard to remember to me. YMMV.

[Winstonm]

In the system Bob and I created for 2C, the auctions went like this:

2C-2D: semiautomatic and game forcing.

2H: small NT
2S: any single suiter
2N: big NT
3C - club/heart
3D diamond/heart
3H majors
3S Spades/clubs
3N- Spades/diamonds

[inquiry]

I very much dislike opening strong two suited hands 2♣ so without playing something special, I would open the minor two suiter you showed 1♦ planning on forcing in clubs at my next turn -- if I get another turn. However, with some partners, I would open that strong two suiter 3♦. I know that looks strange, but it is a convention I refer to as misiry which is meant to handle such hands... and which means all my 2♣ openers where I show two suits the second suit is never more than four cards. Let's not discuss misiry in this thread.... see inquiry2over1 (google it) for misiry if you are actually interested.

[PhilKing]

 inquiry, on 2013-May-31, 22:37, said:

Let's not discuss misiry in this thread.... see inquiry2over1 (google it) for misiry if you are actually interested.

You may as well ask a dog not to bark. 325 loves that sort of stuff.

[fromageGB]

I can't really see what the problem is, showing both minors after a 2♣ open, if you want to force to game. You need an agreement that if partner has immediate negative and positive responses available, a positive response is forcing to game. If you have an almost obligatory 2♦ reply you can treat it as negative :
2♣ negative 4♦ - a jump after a negative is forcing - something(4♥ for example) 5♣
2♣ positive 3♦ something 4♣.
No need for fancy systems.

Having said that, I don't think the TylerE hand is game forcing, and I open 1♦.

[thomas c]

you can use 2n as showing minors weak or strong. second bid is shortness. but once again the rebids esp following interference (which will be common) are difficult.

[benlessard]

There is a pair in the CNTC (canadian championship that was played this week & the final are today) playing Misiry preempt/transfers. Ive never played them but I believe they are a great improvement over plain transfer preempt (wich im not that fond of). I believe 2 way bid are safer than what people think since its so rare that your wrong on guessing partner hands.

I have seen my share of 1 level contract making 2 or 3 while making slam if playing in the 2nd suit. So at one point some of the 2 suiter have to be opened with a forcing opening even if 2C is your only forcing openeing.

[steve2005]

Most strong 2 suiters can be opened at 1-level with all that distribution unlikely to be passed out. If you have a game force hand (4 losers with nice intermediates) then open 2♣.
Is most convenient if your longest suit is a major then can go:
2♣-2♦ (waiting or negative)- 2♥-2♠(second negative)- 3♣ (GF 2 suiter)
most systems can accommodate something like this.
The exception is using 2♥ response for a bust, then heart 2 suiters are impossible to show.

[32519]

 Vampyr, on 2013-May-31, 04:04, said:

When will partner pass? Suit-oriented 2♣ openers are normally GF.

So how is partner supposed to know it's 2-suited until I get a chance to show the 2nd suit before P passes, especially after 2♣-2♥ (double negative). I can show only 1 suit now before P passes.

[32519]

 mcphee, on 2013-May-31, 05:37, said:

Opening this hand 2C will never let you do that. The next thing to appreciate is that if you open this hand 1D do you really think everyone will pass?

This thread isn't about the specific hand posted. Instead it is about 2-suited hands in general.

 mcphee, on 2013-May-31, 05:37, said:

The idea to bear in mind is the ability to show both suits below the level of 3NT so partner is able to make a sound judgement.

This doesn't help me much. Tell me how to do it.

[32519]

 nige1, on 2013-May-31, 14:39, said:

On BBF, I suggested a 3N conventional opener for strong two-suiters and other hands, but the follow-ups were complex and hard to remember.

Care to post that suggestion here again? We got lots of people here who can help you to simplify the follow ups.

[32519]

 blackshoe, on 2013-May-31, 15:20, said:

In Romex, game forcing hands with primary clubs (or hearts, or spades) are opened 2♣, and game forcing hands with primary diamonds are opened 2♦. Responses to 2♣ are control showing through 3♣, responses to 2♦ are 2♥ with 0-9 or so and no slam interest opposite 21-22 balanced, which is also included in 2♦, and 2♠ is 10+, slam interest. Higher responses to 2♦ generally show weak hands and are based on the assumption opener has the balanced 21-22.

After 2♣-2♦, 3♣ shows a club two suiter, 3♦ asks for the second suit, follow ons are natural. 3♦ shows a club one-suiter. Bidding after 2♦-2♥ is similar, but 2♠ by opener at this point shows a diamond-spade two suiter. IIRC 3NT after the 3♦ inquiry shows the other minor; 4 of that minor would show that suit, and deny interest in a NT game.

This doesn't seem complex or hard to remember to me. YMMV.

I don't want to give up my 2♦ bid which I use for my "Revised and Updated Version" of the Multi.

[32519]

 Winstonm, on 2013-May-31, 16:19, said:

In the system Bob and I created for 2C, the auctions went like this:

2C-2D: semiautomatic and game forcing.

2H: small NT
2S: any single suiter
2N: big NT
3C - club/heart
3D diamond/heart
3H majors
3S Spades/clubs
3N- Spades/diamonds

How do you show a bust in this structure after 2♣? Once you've shown a bust, how does the auction change?

[32519]

 thomas c, on 2013-June-01, 04:34, said:

you can use 2n as showing minors weak or strong. second bid is shortness. but once again the rebids esp following interference (which will be common) are difficult.

This thread isn't about the specific hand posted. It's about 2-suited hands in general. How do I show the 2nd suit before P passes?