[32519]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-May-28, 04:15, said:

Choose between Stayman and Puppet Stayman. Bid it when you think you will improve the contract by doing so.

You're kidding about the Puppet Stayman right? I mean you have an auction like this:
2♣ [22+ HCP]
2♥ {0-3 HCP - double negative]
After this if opener's real suit is ♥ he can invite by raising to 3♥. If opener's real suit is ♠ he will just bid it. I can't see anyone bidding 2NT with a 5332 hand after a double negative.

Similarly in an auction like this:
2♣-2♥-2NT, whenever responder has a 5-card major he will simply transfer into it.

[32519]

 mikeh, on 2013-May-28, 05:21, said:

I play the 2 heart immediate second negative, but not as 0-3, which I think is technically flawed, and confuses high card count with working values. A stray Q or J or two may be completely irrelevant opposite a suit-based 2 club opening but an A or K will usually have value opposite all2 club bids. my 2 hearts denies an A or K, and I think this is far more common than simply 0-3.

As for how far 2 clubs is forcing it is for me forcing to 2N, 3 spades or 4 of the other suits. It needs to force beyond 3 hearts a to cater to the admittedly rare powerhouse 2 suited with hearts and another, where opener needs to have 2 chances to bid over the 2 heart response.

This is an interesting approach I've not heard of before. Potentially I can have a stray king (my only HCP), and give a positive response of 2♦. Similarly I can have 7 HCP in scattered queens and jacks but need to respond 2♥ now.

Does anyone else use Mike's methods? Would love to hear from you as well.

[32519]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-May-28, 07:50, said:

With long diamonds and major suit fragments you can bid 3♣ and pass. If you think that 5m will play better than 2NT you can transfer into the minor. After a negative response you might also choose to allow a get-out in 4m within the follow-ups; over an unlimited response this would obviously be a waste of bidding space.

Sorry Zel but I don't understand this post of yours.
The auction has now progressed as follows:
2♣ [22+ HCP]
2♥ [0-3 HCP - double negative]
2NT [22-23 HCP balanced]
3♣? [Stayman]
3M
3M has gone past the 3♦ where I potentially wanted to play?

I am interested in your "get-out in 4m," a sequence where opener is expected to pass unless holding a good fit or whatever.

[TylerE]

 32519, on 2013-May-28, 08:53, said:

This is an interesting approach I've not heard of before. Potentially I can have a stray king (my only HCP), and give a positive response of 2♦. Similarly I can have 7 HCP in scattered queens and jacks but need to respond 2♥ now.

Does anyone else use Mike's methods? Would love to hear from you as well.

I've played it. It works well. Probably my favorite of any of the methods proposed. The heaviest I remember making the 2♥ response was on a balanced 9 count. We righly kept out of slam that much of the field bid, missing only one ace. Of course, you were also missing the K in the same suit...

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

• Traditional
  The good point is the ability of finding the partner's good suit if any, the bad point is that the 2♦ waiting response shows nothing about the strength except not having a good suit to bid, and the inability to stop at the 2-level holding absolutely nothing.
• 2♥ immediate negative
  The good point is the ability to stop at 2♠ immediately when holding absolutely nothing, the bad point is losing the natural 2♥ response.

Making the 2♥ bid NF, or making opener's 2♠ rebid NF after 2♥, is in my opinion unplayable. Why shouldn't 2♥ be NF? Because responder might have a great fit for opener's hearts, despite having almost no HCP! A fit with some sort of shape with 0 HCP can easily be enough for game. So opener has to bid 3♥ holding hearts IMO. And also, opener's 2♠ ought to be at least F1, since even if responder has no spade fit, opener might be 2-suited, and perhaps responder has a good fit for opener's 2nd suit. I've won boards being in 4♥ when opps thought passing 2♥ was clever. Can't remember losing a swing being in 3♥ down 1 when opps able to stop at two.


If you want to be able to stop at 2 (and also lower your strength requirements for opening 2♣ with a major one-suiter, otherwise probably wouldn't be worth it), use Chris Ryall's "paradox responses" where 2♥ denies a good heart fit, and 2♠ is also negative, but worth a trick for hearts.

Quote

• cheapest minor negative
  I can't think of any good points of this because the time responder showing absolutely nothing, the auction is already at the 3-level.

It allows you to stop at 3M if opener just rebids his first suit. Also by putting negatives into 2♦ instead of 2♥, you get to use Kokish holding 25+ balanced opposite the really weak hands, which is the whole point of Kokish.


I have come to believe though that you should only use this over opener's 2M rebids. Otherwise forget about showing responder's strength, force to game and hope to make it if opener is strong enough to rebid 3m, which should be stronger minimum than strong 2♣ based on a major.

Quote

controls responses


The good point is knowing how much As and Ks in the partnership immediately, which is helpful for whether to go for a slam, the bad point is that the Qs and Js are ignored, which, if responder has little values, makes deciding whether to go game or not difficult..

Controls interferes with showing suits and finding fits. Deciding whether to go to game or not really isn't that difficult. If you wanted one could still play a ch. min 2nd neg after showing 0-1 controls with 2♦ if responder is really broke. 99% of the time you want to be in game anyway, if the auction isn't going 2c-2d-2nt pass.

[fromageGB]

 32519, on 2013-May-27, 22:53, said:

What do others recommend as a continuation structure over the strong 2♣ opener?

Assuming 2♣ is not just an "acol 2" but at worst 22+ balanced or a trick short of game :
2♦ negative, denies an A, denies a K, no 6 card suit
.. then 2♥ puppets 2♠, and 2♠ puppets 2NT unless spade support, opener's 3rd bid not forcing unless jump ; 2NT direct and 2NT via 2♥ both not forcing
2♥ positive, an ace or king, no 6 card suit
.. then all is GF, except that opener may pass 4m raise, and 2♠ still puppets 2NT unless spade support
2♠ available for a specific hand type
2NT upwards = any strength transfer to a 6 card suit, but then rebid over completion is positive or has values.

The initial transfer with a weak hand enables you to play in 3m rather than 4m if opener had a 2NT rebid, and might provide a game contract suit otherwise.

[fromageGB]

Having started with a 2♥ positive, if opener bids a major, with support bid "non-serious 3NT" with just that one A or K, with 2 or more make a serious cue. With no support bid 2NT over 2♠ or 4♥ over 3♥. (If opener was 2-suited with hearts and minor he would bid minor first.)

[blackshoe]

I think that defining 2♣ as "22+ HCP" and leaving it at that is probably a mistake. I have played this definition: balanced 23-24 or 25-26 or 29-30* or unbalanced 0-3 losers (LTC) if a major, 0-2 losers if a minor. The bid is forcing to game except that after 2♣-2♦-2NT, responder may pass. Responses are control showing through 3♣*. 3♦ and 3♥ are transfers, showing in effect a weak two bid in the next higher suit. Higher bids have assigned meanings but are very rare.

* 0-1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6

A balanced 23-24 will normally have 8 controls, 25-26 nine controls, 29-30 11 controls.

Note: with the minimum balanced hand at 23 HCP, you may require some adjustment to the lower rungs of your NT ladder. One possibility:

12-16 HCP: open 1m, rebid 1NT
17-18 HCP: open 1m (usually), rebid 2NT
19-20 HCP: open 1NT (art., forcing), rebid 2NT
21-22 HCP: open 2♦, rebid 2NT

Another:

10-12 HCP: open 1NT
13-16 HCP: open 1m, rebid 1NT
17-18 HCP: open 1m, rebid 2NT
19-20 HCP: open 2NT
21-22 HCP: open 2♦, rebid 2NT

Re: "control responses are oriented to slam bidding". Of course. Who doesn't like to bid slams?

[Winstonm]

Bob and I put together a whole system of responses based on hand types but it was so complicated I have long since forgotten it. I think it is pretty good, though, to start with some concepts: If I remember, 2D was somewhat automatic after which opener showed his hand type: 2H=1 suiter (any suit) 2S-smaller NT, 2N-bigger NT, 3C,3D,3H,3S all 2-suiters, etc. An immediate 2H was a double negative.

I think we were onto something, though, as the most common types of hands, 1-suiters and NT hands, got the most room.

[TylerE]

So What do you open with:

xxx
-
AKQJx
AKQJx

?

[blackshoe]

 TylerE, on 2013-May-28, 17:18, said:

So What do you open with:

xxx
-
AKQJx
AKQJx

?

Me? Depends. If Mexican 2♦ is available, I open 2♦, planning to rebid 3♣ — or possibly 4 if forced that high — showing a diamond-club two-suiter. If not, probably 1♦.

[Antrax]

Having read BBF extensively, I was convinced that you should never open 2♣ on two-suited hands, instead opting to open them at the 1-level. The problem was that people in the club hadn't read BBF, so we would sometimes get 1m swish. To solve that dilemma, I've come up with a tweak where with strong hands, you open 1m while staring intently at your partner. This has two upsides: the force of your gaze might make your partner more likely to bid, especially if you start frowning when it seems like he's reaching for a green card, and avoiding eye contact with the opponents signals weakness, which would encourage them to overcall on trash.

[32519]

 Codo, on 2013-May-28, 00:21, said:

When playing just strong 2 ♣ openings, I liked something like:
2 ♦ 4-7
2 ♥ 0-3
higher bids: transfers with 8+. With 5332 you transfer to NT first. Partner accepts the transfer with any kind of fit or bids his suit.

This suggestion of Codo so far still has the most support. So I've been mulling over it - how to improve on it? So now I am suggesting this modification:
2♦ as one of two possible hand types:
1. 4-7 HCP any distribution, or
2. 8+ HCP which includes a 5+ card ♥ suit.

I have a whole bunch of reasons for this change -
1. In the lesser likelihood that opener also has a 5-card ♥ suit, the strong hand gets to remain as declarer.
2. In the greater likelihood that opener has a strong balanced hand, the strong gets to remain as declarer after 2♣-2♦-2NT-3♦ (transfer to ♥)
3. Minimising artificial bids/memory load by not needing to add some other bid into the continuation structure to show a 5-card ♥ suit.
4. Players who hate artificial bids may need to jump straight to 3♥ over 2♣ to show 8+ HCP and a 5-card suit. Just have a look at all the bidding space that has been consumed if you choose to bid like this! Dumb, really dumb!!

Any takers? Codo, at least you should comment. We're still expanding on your idea!

[Vampyr]

How many 2♣ openers are you dealt? If you play that 2♦ is an artificial semi-positive or better, and 2♥ is an immediate double negative, you will do fine.

Your system design process is backwards, and it is taking ages. Also a system consisting of elements that you like best out of various BBOer's suggestions on completely different topics is likely to have holes and gaps and be totally unplayable. Put together a framework that is at least internally consistent, and play it. If you find that some hand-types are being handled poorly by your system, or that you have devoted certain bids/auctions to hand-types that seem to come up very infrequently, then look for better ways to handle to hand-types or utilise those auctions.

EDIT: PS don't do your #4 above. Include your heart positives (and all positives if you want) in your 2♦ bid. Remember that partner will most likely be rebidding 2NT, so if you have a decent way of showing suits over 2NT openers you don't really need to show them beforehand. For example, use 2♠ if you want to get out at 3m opposite partner's weakest balanced hand; don't use 2NT so as not to wrongside the NT and many other contracts, and use 3X bids as something specific, like a 6-card suit missing one of the top 3 and little outside.

[32519]

At our local club last, as dealer with a big 22+ HCP hand, I faced an awkward decision when the opponents butted in on the auction. Unfortunately I made the wrong decision. Both sides were red and this was the auction:

---

I held a 2245 distribution, the 2 card ♥ suit was both the Ace and King. With no fit in the ♠ suit, I had no guarantee that we would find a ♣ fit either. There was also no guarantee that 6NT is on. The decision was now weighing up 6♣ for a score of 1370, 6NT for a score of 1460, or 4♥X which needed to go down more than 4 for the better score. With a known minimum 30 HCP between us I settled for the X. Bad decision. 6♣ makes easy on the lie of the cards. 6NT failed by 1 as the cards lay, the ♦K and the ♠Q were the 2 offending cards, 1 onside and 1 offside. The ♠Q was onside but West held 4 ♠ to the queen and simply holds up the queen. Declarer held Ax in ♠ so can only finesse once.

East got lucky with him butting in like he did. He found a “double fit” in the red suits lacking in most of the top honours. He only went 4 down.

[32519]

 32519, on 2013-May-28, 22:43, said:

4. Players who hate artificial bids may need to jump straight to 3♥ over 2♣ to show 8+ HCP and a 5-card suit. Just have a look at all the bidding space that has been consumed if you choose to bid like this! Dumb, really dumb!!

 Vampyr, on 2013-May-28, 23:13, said:

EDIT: PS don't do your #4 above. Include your heart positives (and all positives if you want) in your 2♦ bid.

Vampyr and I have finally agreed on something.

[Zelandakh]

 32519, on 2013-May-28, 09:09, said:

3M has gone past the 3♦ where I potentially wanted to play?

You hold long diamonds with major suit fragments good enough to make 3M playable. So when you bid this way you are judging that 3M will play better than 2NT.

 32519, on 2013-May-28, 09:09, said:

I am interested in your "get-out in 4m," a sequence where opener is expected to pass unless holding a good fit or whatever.

I do not have a system for it, although it would not be difficult to adjust many standard methods. For example, I play 2NT - 4♣ as a slammy hand with long diamonds. It would be reasonable to play this as a puppet to 4♦ after the 2♣ opening and bust response, catering to both hand types at the expense of some definition on the slam hands. The point being that the chances of Responder holding a slam drive have gone down considerably.

 Stephen Tu, on 2013-May-28, 09:45, said:

Making the 2♥ bid NF, or making opener's 2♠ rebid NF after 2♥, is in my opinion unplayable. Why shouldn't 2♥ be NF? Because responder might have a great fit for opener's hearts, despite having almost no HCP!
<snip>
If you want to be able to stop at 2 (and also lower your strength requirements for opening 2♣ with a major one-suiter, otherwise probably wouldn't be worth it), use Chris Ryall's "paradox responses" where 2♥ denies a good heart fit, and 2♠ is also negative, but worth a trick for hearts.

You first write that it is unplayable and then refer to one potential response scheme that makes it work. There are other possibilities too if your only Acol 2 hand is in hearts.

[mycroft]

On a very side note, someone was asking about how often responder's transfers pick off opener. My experience playing "one-over" transfers over 2♣ (♥ = double negative, ♠ = hearts, NT = spades) was "never". But then again, there were only 3 major suit positives in 15000 hands.

My experience playing Precision with transfer positive responses is "occasionally, but much more frequently we right-side the contract over those playing normal" (or even those playing "not strong club"). The thing is that partner has 4 suits and balanced hands, and you've picked off one of them. The number of times you want to play in opener's suit is more than the number of times you want to play in responder's, yeah (actually, at least in Precision in my experience, it's pretty much even, frankly, but let's assume that's confirmation bias for the moment); but you've only got a 20%-ish chance of picking off opener's suit; about a 40% chance you have just let the strong hand play your suit. Adjust to suit, of course, given that even when you do find a fit, half of those fits you want to play in NT anyway (that's why the "2NT = heart positive/spade positive" works well; it sucks when you want to play NT, but a weak hand with a good major suit is the least likely time to want to play NT).

How much the above paragraph translates to 2♣ strong is debatable; after all we positive on 8+ any 5-cd suit; rather than waiting for honour concentration. But still the second/third round bids, where responder does show her suit even though it's not "good", play better as transfers, if you have the room for it (which you usually don't).

[32519]

 Vampyr, on 2013-May-28, 23:13, said:

How many 2♣ openers are you dealt?

I play from time to time at the bigger clubs not overly far from where I live, Johannesburg and Pretoria. Every game there has pre-dealt hands. Fairly often they include big hands but with awkward continuation auctions; nothing with responder, no fit, major suit fits for the opponents which makes it difficult for our side to get to any minor suit slam after the opponents jump to game.

So it’s not as though this thread is out of the blue. I’m seeing big pre-dealt hands but at the same time acknowledging that my own methods are inadequate. So I come to the Forums for some help.

 Vampyr, on 2013-May-28, 23:13, said:

Your system design process is backwards, and it is taking ages. Also a system consisting of elements that you like best out of various BBOer's suggestions on completely different topics is likely to have holes and gaps and be totally unplayable. Put together a framework that is at least internally consistent, and play it. If you find that some hand-types are being handled poorly by your system, or that you have devoted certain bids/auctions to hand-types that seem to come up very infrequently, then look for better ways to handle to hand-types or utilise those auctions.

Err, that’s why I’m here; looking for better ways.

This part of your post could easily wrap up first round responses by responder. Without realizing it you may have answered my question to Zel higher up in this thread.

 Vampyr, on 2013-May-28, 23:13, said:

If you play that 2♦ is an artificial semi-positive or better, and 2♥ is an immediate double negative, you will do fine.

Include your heart positives (and all positives if you want) in your 2♦ bid. Remember that partner will most likely be rebidding 2NT, so if you have a decent way of showing suits over 2NT openers you don't really need to show them beforehand. For example, use 2♠ if you want to get out at 3m opposite partner's weakest balanced hand; don't use 2NT so as not to wrong side the NT and many other contracts, and use 3X bids as something specific, like a 6-card suit missing one of the top 3 and little outside.

I have every intention of using this suggestion of yours but modified as follows:
After a 2♣ opener, then –
1. 2♦ is any positive, 4+ but not limited to 7
2. 2♥ is a bust with 0-3 HCP. However, I am adding the following to this –
a. Either a balanced bust, or
b. A bust with a 5-card or longer major. If opener bids 2NT over 2♥ I can transfer into the major for signoff
3. 2♠ is also a bust with 0-3 HCP. However, I am adding the following to this –
a. Very specifically a ♦ bust (long ♦ suit)
b. Therefore, 2♠ is a transfer to 3♦
c. If partner bids anything else other than 3♦, obviously he has a very good reason for doing so, and is essentially declaring on his own hand strength and distribution
4. A direct raise to 3♣ is a ♣ bust. If partner bids anything else other than pass, obviously he has a very good reason for doing so, and is essentially declaring on his own hand strength and distribution

Thank you my sweet sister.

[Vampyr]

 32519, on 2013-May-29, 12:24, said:

I play from time to time at the bigger clubs not overly far from where I live, Johannesburg and Pretoria. Every game there has pre-dealt hands. Fairly often they include big hands but with awkward continuation auctions; nothing with responder, no fit, major suit fits for the opponents which makes it difficult for our side to get to any minor suit slam after the opponents jump to game.

So it’s not as though this thread is out of the blue. I’m seeing big pre-dealt hands but at the same time acknowledging that my own methods are inadequate. So I come to the Forums for some help.

Read Law6E4. If these "pre-dealt hands" are not random, the game is illegal (although I believe that an exception can be made if certain hand-types are included for instructional purposes. Have the clubs disclosed that this is what they are doing?)