[awm]

1♣-pass-pass-dbl
pass-pass-?

Supposing a very weak and fairly flat hand, when do you run from this? Was opener supposed to bid with very weak/short clubs? I am most interested in a "standard" 5-card major context but those who play 1♣ as 4+ or as 2+ are welcome to comment also.

[straube]

I'd sit with 3 or more clubs and run with fewer (redouble or bid a 5-cd suit). I'd expect opener to redouble with 3 or fewer clubs. Playing redouble as business/length doesn't solve a problem.

[quiddity]

Always. I guess I'd sit with long clubs but I never have long clubs in this auction.
Forcing opener to redouble with 3 or fewer clubs sounds suicidal.

[TylerE]

I don't rescue partner. Period.

[akwoo]

For those who open 1♣ on 4432, I think it makes sense for opener to redouble to show precisely that distribution (and on rare occasions cheat with 4333 or 3433). I suppose in a "standard" context, opener's redouble should show 4423 or a (43)33 where both majors are clearly better than clubs.

I would run with any 5 card suit (even with 4 clubs if it's a major) and redouble with either 2 non-club 4 card suits or something like QT4 QT3 9652 763 where a 3-3 major fit won't be any worse than a 4-3 club fit with a bad trump break. (I would sit with Q63 Q83 9652 T93; those intermediates greatly reduce the damage a trump lead through declarer can do.)

It strikes me the weak NTers might have something useful to say here; they actually have to figure out how to get to the least bad spot with 2 basically balanced hands with some frequency, and this is basically their problem almost one level lower.

[Codo]

I will often rescue him if I have a place to go.
If my SOS XX simply leads to 2 club X one more down,... Oh well...

As a rule of thumb, I would always run if my long suit is about 3 cards longer then my club holding.So, with 4441, with 2352 and with 1363 I would run. With 4432 I need a table read, but I would usually sit.

[r_prah]

awm, on 2013-May-27, 19:15, said:

Was opener supposed to bid with very weak/short clubs?

Nope, he was not. It has to be right to run unless you have 4 clubs, as RHO has announced good clubs.

[mikeh]

In partnerships in which we open 1 club on 4=4=3=2, we redouble as opener to show that hand, to slightly reduce responder's dilemma.

[PhilKing]

I play two-card club where the only balanced hand is a weak no trump in a style where opener always opens 1♣ with a weak no trump and responder passes 1♣ with weak balanced hands lacking a five-card major.

When it goes 1♣-p-p-x, there are basically two common scenarios:

1. Opener has a good hand with clubs and it will be a partscore battle. Whilst in theory, opener could obviously have a medium strength hand with, say, a 2425 shape, in practice that hand rarely leads to this auction.

2. Opener has a weak no trump with short clubs, lefty is trapping and there is a chance we are about to be incinerated.

To cater for situation one, redouble by opener shows a good hand with clubs, imo. Opener redoubling with short clubs is upside down - just run. It's not as if redoubling increases your options, and it just tempos terribly. Running immediately gives lefty a dilemma when he can't smack it himself and is not playing a forcing pass. With 4432, run to 1♦ then redouble, etc, but in principle opener should just run to his lowest playable spot, since it is pretty much guaranteed that lefty is trapping.

Therefore for me pass should show three or more clubs. Responder now passes the double with four clubs but initiates escape manoeuvres with fewer.

[straube]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-28, 06:33, said:

I play two-card club where the only balanced hand is a weak no trump in a style where opener always opens 1♣ with a weak no trump and responder passes 1♣ with weak balanced hands lacking a five-card major.

When it goes 1♣-p-p-x, there are basically two common scenarios:

1. Opener has a good hand with clubs and it will be a partscore battle. Whilst in theory, opener could obviously have a medium strength hand with, say, a 2425 shape, in practice that hand rarely leads to this auction.

2. Opener has a weak no trump with short clubs, lefty is trapping and there is a chance we are about to be incinerated.

To cater for situation one, redouble by opener shows a good hand with clubs, imo. Opener redoubling with short clubs is upside down - just run. It's not as if redoubling increases your options, and it just tempos terribly. Running immediately gives lefty a dilemma when he can't smack it himself and is not playing a forcing pass. With 4432, run to 1♦ then redouble, etc, but in principle opener should just run to his lowest playable spot, since it is pretty much guaranteed that lefty is trapping.

Therefore for me pass should show three or more clubs. Responder now passes the double with four clubs but initiates escape manoeuvres with fewer.

I like your answer better than mine. Run short clubs, pass medium clubs (4-5?), redouble with good clubs. I suppose pass of the redouble should be business or opener could bluff?

[mycroft]

I believe Fred's comment from years ago was "If the opponents think they want to defend 1-minor doubled, they're right". Who am I to gainsay him?

[Winstonm]

When my partner passed, he didn't know that LHO had a club stack - now that I know it behooves me to try to find a better spot. I'm running unless I hold 4 clubs.

[ArtK78]

mycroft, on 2013-May-28, 12:20, said:

I believe Fred's comment from years ago was "If the opponents think they want to defend 1-minor doubled, they're right". Who am I to gainsay him?

I don't know that Fred was the first one to say this, but it is a very good rule.

[FrancesHinden]

I was going to quote the same rule.
I'd basically always run here.

[akwoo]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-28, 06:33, said:

I play two-card club where the only balanced hand is a weak no trump in a style where opener always opens 1♣ with a weak no trump and responder passes 1♣ with weak balanced hands lacking a five-card major.

When it goes 1♣-p-p-x, there are basically two common scenarios:

1. Opener has a good hand with clubs and it will be a partscore battle. Whilst in theory, opener could obviously have a medium strength hand with, say, a 2425 shape, in practice that hand rarely leads to this auction.

2. Opener has a weak no trump with short clubs, lefty is trapping and there is a chance we are about to be incinerated.

To cater for situation one, redouble by opener shows a good hand with clubs, imo. Opener redoubling with short clubs is upside down - just run. It's not as if redoubling increases your options, and it just tempos terribly. Running immediately gives lefty a dilemma when he can't smack it himself and is not playing a forcing pass. With 4432, run to 1♦ then redouble, etc, but in principle opener should just run to his lowest playable spot, since it is pretty much guaranteed that lefty is trapping.

Therefore for me pass should show three or more clubs. Responder now passes the double with four clubs but initiates escape manoeuvres with fewer.

Your handling of situation one seems backwards to me. If you are going to be in a partscore battle and have a 6 card suit (or even a good 5), shouldn't you be bidding 2♣ immediately to make it harder for them to find their fit? Why give the opponents the one level?

[PhilKing]

akwoo, on 2013-May-28, 14:56, said:

Your handling of situation one seems backwards to me. If you are going to be in a partscore battle and have a 6 card suit (or even a good 5), shouldn't you be bidding 2♣ immediately to make it harder for them to find their fit? Why give the opponents the one level?

2♣ = good playing strength, fewer points.

There's not going to be a huge amount to be gained tactically by getting to 2♣ quickly with lots of defence. On a good day, we play 1♣xx making, on a great day, partner is 4441 and we end up smashing them up when we would have gone down in 2♣. Anyway, it's partner's decision. If I have:

♠Ax
♥KJx
♦Kx
♣AQ97xx

I am happy to let pard decide what to do on any continuation. And if we end up in 1♣XX, I will take my lumps.

[rogerclee]

I would essentially always run without 5 clubs, with 5 clubs it would depend on what my hand looked like but I'm guessing I would pass more than half the time.

[jallerton]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-28, 06:33, said:

I play two-card club where the only balanced hand is a weak no trump in a style where opener always opens 1♣ with a weak no trump and responder passes 1♣ with weak balanced hands lacking a five-card major.

OK, so what do you play Opener's calls to mean after 1♦-P-P-dbl in your system?

PhilKing, on 2013-May-28, 06:33, said:

When it goes 1♣-p-p-x, there are basically two common scenarios:

1. Opener has a good hand with clubs and it will be a partscore battle. Whilst in theory, opener could obviously have a medium strength hand with, say, a 2425 shape, in practice that hand rarely leads to this auction.

Perhaps this is because medium strength 2425 shapes are often opened 1NT!

Quote

2. Opener has a weak no trump with short clubs, lefty is trapping and there is a chance we are about to be incinerated.

To cater for situation one, redouble by opener shows a good hand with clubs, imo. Opener redoubling with short clubs is upside down - just run. It's not as if redoubling increases your options, and it just tempos terribly. Running immediately gives lefty a dilemma when he can't smack it himself and is not playing a forcing pass. With 4432, run to 1♦ then redouble, etc, but in principle opener should just run to his lowest playable spot, since it is pretty much guaranteed that lefty is trapping.

Therefore for me pass should show three or more clubs. Responder now passes the double with four clubs but initiates escape manoeuvres with fewer.

I agree that LHO might have a penalty pass, but why do you assume that RHO has a classic take-out double shape? If Opener has a weak NT and the auction starts 1♣-P-P-dbl, the doubler often just has a 'double then bid' (usually 1NT) hand. Although 1♣x is not making, it's often impossible for his partner to pass out 1♣x without taking a huge risk.

[PhilKing]

jallerton, on 2013-May-29, 12:49, said:

OK, so what do you play Opener's calls to mean after 1♦-P-P-dbl in your system?

I agree that LHO might have a penalty pass, but why do you assume that RHO has a classic take-out double shape? If Opener has a weak NT and the auction starts 1♣-P-P-dbl, the doubler often just has a 'double then bid' (usually 1NT) hand. Although 1♣x is not making, it's often impossible for his partner to pass out 1♣x without taking a huge risk.

1♦ is nat or 18-20 bal, so it is very different. 1♦-(p)-p virtually promises 0-4 hcp with 4-card diamond support in my methods (3334 0-3 is the only exception). There, I would play XX as 18-20 bal with 3+ ♦, but fancying a joust. The reality is that we almost never pass a diamond. Eg 1♦-1NT-2♣ is natural or 18-20 bal, catering to partner holding 3325 with 0-4 points.

I have done a search for the 1♣-p-p-x auction in my database (20k hands and growing from World champs, European, Spingold, Vanderbilt, USBC and a few other big events - searchable for any auction) and am still analysing the results, but I have not come across any non-standard doubles yet.