[ahydra]

After stumbling around in the dark the other night twice, both times to land in 6NT (thankfully making), my partner and I would be very grateful for some useful methods/meta-agreements to have when it comes to ambiguous auctions that end up at the four-level. The main problem situations seem to be after 2NT openers and 4SF. Take these for example.

1)
(possibly strong bid and response here)
2NT (some BAL range)-3D (transfer)
3H-4D (natural)
4S

4S was understood by both players as a cue - but for which suit, diamonds or hearts? Surely 4H would be non-forcing.

2)
1D-2C
2H (15+ reverse)-2S (4SF)
3H (5-6 reds)-4C

Is 4C natural (strong with a lot of clubs) or a cue for hearts? We don't play SJS in the minors. If it's a cue for hearts, does responder have a spade control? [1D-2C; 2H-4C sounds like a natural club slam try, so perhaps the above auction ought to be a cue for hearts]

3)
1S-2C
2D-2H (4SF)
3H (???)-4C
What is 3H here? And what is 4C?

4)
1S-2C
2D-2H (4SF)
2S

2S shows a minimum hand, but could have five or six spades. How can responder continue if he has a slam try with Hx of spades, no heart stop and wants to know whether partner has six spades? 3S is NF for us here.

I guess 4D here is a splinter for spades, since responder could have bid 4D not 2H if he had diamonds?

Many thanks,

ahydra

[awm]

Answering these might require more context about your agreements but for me:

1. 4♠ is cuebid for diamonds. Responder's sequence is not necessarily very slammish and opener has denied a "great hand for hearts" by bidding 3♥ at first turn. Opener might have a great hand for diamonds or be cueing in case partner is slam-interested (since 4♠ is cheaper than 5♦) but I don't think he should really bypass 4♥ on his own if he wants to play hearts.

2. Surely after opener's reverse we are forced to game. So 3♣ by responder at second turn would have been forcing with clubs, and the delayed 4♣ is a cuebid for hearts.

3. Here it sounds like a 3♣ rebid at second turn would not have been forcing, so 4♣ should be natural. Note that responder could bid 3♠ or 4♦ to try for slam in opener's respective suits (or could've jumped to 3♠ or 4♦ over the 2♦ rebid directly). My preference is to play the 3♥ bid as something like 5341 but without a heart control.

4. It seems normal to play 4th suit forcing to game after a 2/1 call (even if it would be only forcing one round in a sequence starting with a 1/1 bid). Thus 3♠ would be forcing, and seems the right call. If opener has six spades you certainly want to be in spades; if opener has five spades only then he will not have a heart control (else would rebid 2NT) and spades is probably still your best strain. BTW there are three sequences here of: 1♠-2♣-2♦-2♠, 1♠-2♣-2♦-3♠, 1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥-rebid-3♠. Normally I play that the first sequence is non-forcing, the second sequence is a slam try in spades, and the third sequence was a game forcing hand without clear direction that is suggesting a spade contract. It sounds from your post like you play the first two (and possibly the third!) as non-forcing which will probably make your bidding more difficult.

My general rule in a style where 2/1 is not always GF is that a call by responder which sounds strong after making a 2/1 call (such as jumping or bidding the fourth suit) always establishes a GF. There is just not that much room between the 2/1 bid (requiring 10 or so points) and a GF (requiring a good 12) that I need to split hairs by having a call that is "more than a minimum 2/1 but still not GF."

[gnasher]

On 1, I think responder has made a slam-try, so opener might want to cue-bid for either suit. When opener bid 3♥, he didn't know about responder's diamond suit, so he may not have known how good his hand was.

Without any agreement to do something better, 4♠ is a cue-bid for an unspecified red suit.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2013-May-25, 17:21

[aguahombre]

gnasher, on 2013-May-25, 17:17, said:

On 1, I think responder has made a slam-try, so opener might want to cue-bid for either suit. When opener bid 3♥, he didn't know about responder's diamond suit, so he may not have known how good his hand was.

Without any agreement to do something better, 4♠ is a cue-bid for an unspecified red suit.

Andy is consistent here and in another thread regarding the auction, and some of us are consistent in disagreeing.

2N-3D
3H-4D..the ambiguity can be eliminated here if, when opener agrees hearts, he just bids 4H. It is then up to responder to carry on if (despite no super-accept) she still wishes to try for slam.

[Zelandakh]

I think the problems here are all essentially system-based and simple to fix.

1. Play transfers at Responder's second turn and the ambiguity disappears. Responder rebids 4♣ to show diamonds and now you can just bid 4♦ with diamond support. You can now choose between 4♠ showing a good hand for hearts (cue or whatever) if you think this hand exists, or 4♠ showing a double-fit (if you think that all heart-based hands worth committing to the 5 level would have super-accepted).

2. I recommend playing 2♠ as a weakness indicator (Lebensohl) here, so that the good hand with long clubs would have rebid 3♣. The traditional method where almost all good hands had to go through the fourth suit is just bad. Alternatively, if you are feeling brave, you could also experiment with transfers.

3. The most common way of playing the 3♥ "raise" here is as a natural patterning out call without a high honour. An alternative is to play it as showing a half stop. Either way, 4♣ is natural and forcing.

4. I do not think it is reasonable for 3♠ to be non-forcing in the given sequence. Just rebid 2♠ with that hand and 3♠ after 4th suit forcing with the good hand and 2 spades. With a good hand and 3 spades you can rebid 3♠ over 2♦.

[fromageGB]

Zelandakh, on 2013-May-27, 03:24, said:

I think the problems here are all essentially system-based and simple to fix.

1. Play transfers at Responder's second turn and the ambiguity disappears.

Zel, it would be good if you could expand the explanation of fixing the system in this regard. While 4♣ is a transfer to diamonds, what is the bid for transfer to clubs? Many people think that you want to offer a choice of games (3NT or 4M) when you have a 5 card major, and after a transfer to spades use 3NT for this. How do you transfer to clubs?

4♦ shows clubs? But then what continuations, as you are already rather high to ace ask if a suitable hand is shown, perhaps with 4♠ continuation.

[Zelandakh]

I posted it in the other thread. I play 2NT - 3♦; 3♥ - 3♠ as a multi-way bid, either a natural 3NT cog; or clubs; or a strong heart one-suiter. After Opener bids 3NT, denying 3 hearts, Responder can now bid 4m showing clubs or 4♥ as the strong one-suiter. I use 2NT - 3♦; 3♥ - 3NT to show 5 hearts and 4 spades (non-forcing) and 2NT - 3♦; 3♥ - 4♦ is a major 2-suiter.

Justin responded in the linked thread that he uses 3♠ as a pure transfer to clubs, since he is not using Puppet and therefore has extra sequences (Smolen) available for, for example, 5♥4♠. If you are playing normal Stayman then (after the transfer) a sensible scheme would be: 3♠ = clubs; 3NT = nat; 4♣ = diamonds; 4♦ = choose one: either majors or strong one-suited slam try. Pick a meaning for 4♦ depending on whether the 5-5 hand is handled by an alternative route. If you require both meanings (strong one-suiter and majors) then we are back to using a multi-3♠ advance: 3♠ = cog or 1-suited; 3NT = clubs; 4♣ = diamonds; 4♦ = majors.

In any case, the second round transfers solve the problem of the unknown trump suit.