[RMB1]

 jallerton, on 2013-June-13, 16:20, said:

Does "shorter" in this context mean fewer lines, fewer words or fewer pages?

Note the earlier

Shorter means less repetition,less redundancy, less irrelevance.
In particular, less saying the same thing in L&E comment, WBFLC minutes and further commentary.

[jallerton]

 RMB1, on 2013-June-14, 00:29, said:

Note the earlier

Shorter means less repetition,less redundancy, less irrelevance.
In particular, less saying the same thing in L&E comment, WBFLC minutes and further commentary.

I agree with cutting out irrelevance, redundancy and too much repetition. It makes sense to cut out some of Ton's comments, e.g. when these have not been endorsed by the EBUL&E.

It's probably too late to have any input into the content of the 2013 White Book, but I do like the way that the current White Book quotes all still relevant WBFLC minutes by Law number. To find these on the WBFLC website, it seems that the reader has to look up each set of minutes individually, in the hope of finding an "interpretation" of the relevant Law.

[RMB1]

New White Book and Blue Book from EBU Laws and Ethics publications page.

[DaveB]

The EBU has decided to issue the White Book and Blue Book in Computer only format, thus rendering them useless to Clubs with no computers on their premises.

I hope this decision is reconsidered promptly.

[gordontd]

 DaveB, on 2013-July-27, 04:52, said:

The EBU has decided to issue the White Book and Blue Book in Computer only format, thus rendering them useless to Clubs with no computers on their premises.

I hope this decision is reconsidered promptly.

I imagine those with no computers will print them out, as they have done for the several years since their predecessors were available in printed form.

[blackshoe]

"Useless". I'm beginning to hate that word. It's a serious overbid almost every time I see it, and certainly here. As has been said, even if there's no computer on club premises, surely someone has one, and can print out the documents.

[RMB1]

 blackshoe, on 2013-July-27, 10:04, said:

... surely someone has one, and can print out the documents.

I understand computers are quite small now! Surely someone can bring
a laptop or tablet or phone and read the documents over the internet.

[paulg]

 RMB1, on 2013-July-27, 10:33, said:

I understand computers are quite small now! Surely someone can bring
a laptop or tablet or phone and read the documents over the internet.

PDF documents are not the easiest to read on an Android tablet or phone. There are ways to do it but not necessarily suitable for the less experienced. A hyperlinked HTML version of the document is more suitable if you are looking stuff up on such a device.

(I appreciate that I used to say that MS/Word format was the devil's work and we need PDF for public distribution. Time is just moving on)

[FrancesHinden]

I can read them fine on my tablet. They will be made available in more e-friendly form in due course.

[barmar]

 DaveB, on 2013-July-27, 04:52, said:

The EBU has decided to issue the White Book and Blue Book in Computer only format, thus rendering them useless to Clubs with no computers on their premises.

I hope this decision is reconsidered promptly.

Are there still clubs in developed countries so impoverished that they score the game by hand? Or do they take the travelers somewhere else to enter them into the computer?

[mycroft]

Assuming that there is internet at the club site is even less friendly than assuming there is a computer at the club site.

Having said that, the basic idea is sound - "look if you need to have it printed, go print it. It'll be cheaper than buying it from us - because we're not making 1000 of them to sit in our warehouse, so our POD is the same price as yours, and you're paying shipping once more from us."

Having it on a tablet - that the TD-who-owns-it has downloaded a long time back - isn't a big deal (but then I'm a techie, so I just assume I have one around).

[barmar]

 mycroft, on 2013-July-29, 10:39, said:

Assuming that there is internet at the club site is even less friendly than assuming there is a computer at the club site.

Most clubs in the US these days have web sites, and the director immediately uploads the results to the site when they're calculated at the end of the game. I'll wager this is also common in England, so they need a computer and an Internet connection.

We're not in the 1990's -- computers and the Internet are close to ubiquitous in developed countries, it's not unreasonable to assume that any commercial enterprise will have them. And as pointed out, if you don't you can print the documents yourself.

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2013-July-29, 10:36, said:

Are there still clubs in developed countries so impoverished that they score the game by hand? Or do they take the travelers somewhere else to enter them into the computer?

The latter is very common.

[jallerton]

 barmar, on 2013-July-29, 14:19, said:

Most clubs in the US these days have web sites, and the director immediately uploads the results to the site when they're calculated at the end of the game. I'll wager this is also common in England, so they need a computer and an Internet connection.

We're not in the 1990's -- computers and the Internet are close to ubiquitous in developed countries, it's not unreasonable to assume that any commercial enterprise will have them. And as pointed out, if you don't you can print the documents yourself.

Only a small minority of bridge clubs in England are run as commercial enterprises. Most are "not for profit" members' clubs which do not have their own premises, meeting once or twice a week at village halls, community centres and the like. These clubs will not have their own internet connection. Whilst it is possible for a generous club member who has the facility to print and bind a document on suitable paper, it would be far more efficient (in money and time) for the EBU to do a bulk print run and send a copy to each club. The cost of doing so would be peanuts compared with the amount each club collects and pays over to the EBU in "pay to play" fees each year. Sometimes the EBU hierarchy would do well to remember that the EBU's purpose of existence is to promote bridge in England and that it should be providing a service to its members and affiliated clubs.

[mycroft]

 barmar, on 2013-July-29, 14:19, said:

Most clubs in the US these days have web sites, and the director immediately uploads the results to the site when they're calculated at the end of the game. I'll wager this is also common in England, so they need a computer and an Internet connection.

Most clubs in Calgary these days have web sites (hosted by the unit), and one of them (to my knowledge, but knowing the clubs I don't play at, maybe one or two others, MAXIMUM) immediately uploads the results to the site.

The rest take a backup on a USB stick home and post them when they get home - or frequently the next day. It works. But it fails to have an Internet connection at the club site.

Having said that, I still think that the cost of a published EBU White Book would be not less than the cost of printing one off from someone - especially as they could print it 2-up on their printer, or double-sided, 2-up at Staples-equivalent.

Having said *that*, I think that the EBU could easily talk to Lulu or equivalent for a POD (print-on-demand) deal, where clubs that wished a bound real copy could order it.

I'm guessing it would be, for about 1000 copies, somewhere around $15-20 a copy no matter how they did it. And how many of those would be "wasted"? I don't know that either.

[campboy]

A printed white book is really not needed in most clubs, even in the UK. Yes, it is rare to have an internet connection on club premises, but since bridgemates (or bridgechums or whatever the other brand are called) are fairly ubiquitous there is normally a device which could have a copy saved on it. Reading on-screen does not have to mean reading on-line.

It's almost unheard of for me to approve of e-books over real books, but the L&EC's main argument for using them seems to be that they are easier to update, which is a very good reason. Printing some now may be helpful in the short term, but it will be unhelpful in the medium term. If you rely on hard copies few people will bother to replace them when something is changed. Just last week I spotted a TD giving a revoke ruling using the 1997 lawbook!

[Vampyr]

 campboy, on 2013-August-06, 14:31, said:

A printed white book is really not needed in most clubs, even in the UK. Yes, it is rare to have an internet connection on club premises, but since bridgemates (or bridgechums or whatever the other brand are called) are fairly ubiquitous there is normally a device which could have a copy saved on it. Reading on-screen does not have to mean reading on-line.

There are an awful lot of small clubs that use travellers and are scored later at someone's home.

[Trinidad]

 jallerton, on 2013-August-02, 14:05, said:

Only a small minority of bridge clubs in England are run as commercial enterprises. Most are "not for profit" members' clubs which do not have their own premises, meeting once or twice a week at village halls, community centres and the like. These clubs will not have their own internet connection.

Sorry, but I don't understand. You mean to say that the village halls and community centres don't have WiFi (or ethernet) for their customers?

How do clubs score? Still by hand?
How do clubs upload the results to the internet? That must then also be done by someone friendly enough to do that. Maybe he could print too.
How do players get their masterpoints assigned (assuming that there is something like that in the EBU)?
How do players discuss the results at the end of the evening, if the results have not been published yet?

Rik

[mycroft]

I play bridge in a "village hall" (and at other times in a church), and no, they have no ethernet - at least not that they're going to let us use.

Some clubs score by hand, but around here, most have a computer.

As I said before, we take a stick home and load it from there.

Same issue - all the club games go on the electronic report; that goes on a stick and emailed to Horn Lake from home.

Well, it's not like we have hand records, either. If you want to pull your scores (if they don't have a printer), they bring it up on the screen for you to copy.

Having said that, at the club that was a full-time bridge club, it did have an internet connection - dialup over a modem. For posting a couple of K of scores, that really was entirely enough, and 1/3 the price of anything always-on. For a 100MB book, though...let's just say I used to take the computer home every couple of months to run updates on it.

[Vampyr]

We have a similar arrangement at our community centre club. We have Bridgemates and a printer, so we do get the scores immediately, including a hard copy if we want one, but the results are posted to the internet and sent to the EBU later.