[kgr]

MP's

---

I'm not sure about the actual hand.
More interested to know how you play 5♥ and 5♠ after this sequence. What agreement (explicit of logic) do you have?

[cherdano]

For me, 5♠ is a slam invite without a heart control.
For others, it forces partner to bid slam with a heart control.
There is no third choice, and 5♥ is a slam try with a heart control.

Obviously, on this hand you prefer the second agreement, but I think the first one is more frequently useful.

[Phil]

cherdano, on 2013-May-18, 08:12, said:

For me, 5♠ is a slam invite without a heart control.
For others, it forces partner to bid slam with a heart control.
There is no third choice, and 5♥ is a slam try with a heart control.

Obviously, on this hand you prefer the second agreement, but I think the first one is more frequently useful.

Considering in the 1st case we are going down in 5 a lot the 2nd may be less frequent but more useful.

[JLOGIC]

cherdano, on 2013-May-18, 08:12, said:

For me, 5♠ is a slam invite without a heart control.
For others, it forces partner to bid slam with a heart control.
There is no third choice, and 5♥ is a slam try with a heart control.

Obviously, on this hand you prefer the second agreement, but I think the first one is more frequently useful.

If it did not demand 6H with a control I'd just bid keycard, FU partner if you jumped with no aces and no kings and a doubleotn heart (its possible, but seems less likely than partner having what he thinks is a bad hand with a heart control and passing 5S).

[kgr]

Is there a rule that defines when support to 5M is asking a control in opps suit for 6M?
Something like?:
If opps preempt and you can not show strong support for partner's 4M with a cue-bid (e.g in example 5 minor is natural and strong) then 5M asks control in opps suit (and 5 in opps suit is slam-try with control).

E.g.:
(3C)-p-(4C)-DBL
(p)-4H-(p)-5H

(3H)-p-(4H)-DBL
(p)-4S-(p)-5S

[campboy]

I would just always play raising to 5M as asking for a control in opponents suit unless one of us has already shown a control or partner has already denied a control.

[Free]

I prefer to show stuff rather than ask. So 5♥ would show a control, 5♠ would deny one.

[MrAce]

cherdano, on 2013-May-18, 08:12, said:

For others, it forces partner to bid slam with a heart control.

I am in that category. So easy 5♠ for me.

I know it has been fashion to play it as invitation for a while but i know a lot of good players turned back to "forcing to slam with a control" for a lot of reasons besides Phil and Justin mentioned.

[cherdano]

Phil, on 2013-May-18, 09:51, said:

Considering in the 1st case we are going down in 5 a lot the 2nd may be less frequent but more useful.

I don't agree fully - partner having a heart control is part of his general strength shown. So there are quite a few hands with xx in hearts where I think we can be fairly confident of making 5♠, but can't be confident of making 6♠ when partner has a heart control.

Obviously, the ideal agreement depends on the range partner has shown - the more wide-ranging, the more useful the invitation, the narrower the range, the more likely we want to have the slam "force".

[Fluffy]

kgr, on 2013-May-19, 04:47, said:

Is there a rule that defines when support to 5M is asking a control in opps suit for 6M?

Anytime showing controls is not possible due to lack of space or lack of forcing bid to stablish trumph

[ArtK78]

I have always played that a raise to 5 of the major was a slam force (not an invite) if responder had second round control of the opponents' suit (or the missing suit in an auction where it is clear that the other suits are controlled).

It is possible that a raise to 5 of a major might be a general invitation if the control ask definition did not make sense on the given auction. For example, if either partner had splintered in the opponents' suit, it would not make sense to ask for second round control, so the 5 of a major bid would have to be a general invitation.

Unitl I read this thread, I had never heard of 5 of a major being used to mean if you have control of the opponents' suit I am inviting slam. While that would clearly increase the frequency of the use of the call, that is not necessarily a good thing. I would imagine that it would increase the frequency of 5 of a major down one.

[Phil]

cherdano, on 2013-May-20, 04:56, said:

I don't agree fully - partner having a heart control is part of his general strength shown. So there are quite a few hands with xx in hearts where I think we can be fairly confident of making 5♠, but can't be confident of making 6♠ when partner has a heart control.

Obviously, the ideal agreement depends on the range partner has shown - the more wide-ranging, the more useful the invitation, the narrower the range, the more likely we want to have the slam "force".

Here was one I had last week:

xxxx xx A AKQJxx

R/W:

2♠ - pass - 2N - 3♥
3♠ - 4♥ - ?

3♠ was undiscussed, but presumably partner has a great suit but a minimum, especially in the context of the vulnerability. In addition, its unclear whether or not we are in a FP. Would 5♠ be sensible here?

[Zelandakh]

An alternative is for 5♥ to ask for a heart control and 5♠ to be an invite with a heart control. One advantage of this is that you could potentially bid 5♥ with a hand that wants to go to slam anyway but the information about a heart control would be useful for deciding which slam to bid.