[akhare]

Given the following constraints:

• GCC
  
• Limited openings (10-15)
  
• 14-16 NT, with 5M332 systemically opened 1N if in range
  
• 2♣ response canonical GF
  
• Semi-forcing 1N response
  
• 3M preemptive
  
• One 3-level response reserved for a mixed raise

What would you choose for the 2♦ / 2♥ responses to a limited 5-card major opening?

1) GF showing (say) 14+
2) Not GF, showing (say) 11(12+)

What would the rest of your response structure look like?

[awm]

This may depend on how you play the 1M-2c sequences. My feeling is that the lighter the minimum for 1M the less immediate GF sequences you want.

How about a structure where opener usually bids 2M over and then:

2nt = 5+/5+ two suited invite (paradox responses)
3-lower = 5+/5+ GF
3M = GF with good side suit and fit
Jump or reverse = self splinter with great suit
3-suit = natural invite

This handles two of the more difficult invites to put thru 1nt (the unbal ones) as well as most of the GF where you don't want to relay or raise right off.

[straube]

Atul, not sure if you know but Meckwell uses 2m as GI+ responses and 2H as GF response. The question we're asking in this thread is backwards. The 2C response leaves the most room for sorting out GI vs GF auctions and the 2H response leaves the least. In a sense, the 2C response is very similar to a semiforcing NT...except that it is forcing. The fact that we're using 2C as GF is a holdover from what we're doing for Midchart because it handles all GF auctions. We don't typically break relay after a 2C response...which is wasteful in a sense...because the 2C response is required to be GF if artificial and because being so (GF) the most efficient thing for captain to do is to continue making S1 responses. But Meckwell use 2C as GI+ and after opener's mostly natural rebids, they use S1 to establish a GF relay. Unfortunately for them, their relay auctions are not as precise as they could be and that's because 1S-2C, 2D as 4+ diamonds is not as loaded as our 1S-2C, 2D sequence. Look btw how Adam has improved upon 1S-2D, 2H. At the same time, he has quite a lot of room after 1S-2C and my guess is that he's replying 2C with hands that we would respond 1N. Like I'd suggest 1N with x Kxx AQxx Kxxxx but I assume he bids 2C.

So the GCC being what it is allows for natural and GI+ club responses and it allows opener to rebid howsoever he chooses...even to prepare for a possible relay auction. But responder may initiate that relay at his next bid or depart from it. That's compensation for having to be natural. I think we should use it.

I'd like to think about this for the GCC...

For 1S....

3H-mixed raise
3D-wjs
3C-wjs
2N-limit raise
2S-simple raise
2H-GF 5+
2D-GI+ with 5+ or possible heart canape with GI values (e.g. Kx AKJxxx xxx xx)
.....get Adam's help for continuations based on Imprecision
2C-GI+ with 3+ but could be short with fit for opener's major. possible heart canape with GI values (e.g. Kx AKJxxx xx xxx)
.....use our normal relay structure though we might optimize this for relay breaks. Responder may break relay to show mostly GI club or heart hands
1N-semiforcing, could have GI club hands short in spades, could have weaker hands with 6+ hearts

So pondering some things. Like most likely responding 2D and then rebidding 3C would show GI 5/5 minors since GF minors would just respond 2C.

[rhm]

awm, on 2013-May-17, 21:43, said:

This may depend on how you play the 1M-2c sequences. My feeling is that the lighter the minimum for 1M the less immediate GF sequences you want.

How about a structure where opener usually bids 2M over and then:

2nt = 5+/5+ two suited invite (paradox responses)
3-lower = 5+/5+ GF
3M = GF with good side suit and fit
Jump or reverse = self splinter with great suit
3-suit = natural invite

This handles two of the more difficult invites to put thru 1nt (the unbal ones) as well as most of the GF where you don't want to relay or raise right off.

So what do you do with a strong semi-balanced but not so great one-suiter or a balanced or semi-balanced (5-4) game force hand with a doubleton or singleton in opener's major?
Rebid 3NT on all of them almost irrespective of strength?
What about 5-4-2-2 hands with a weak doubleton in the unbid suit?

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

straube, on 2013-May-18, 00:59, said:

Atul, not sure if you know but Meckwell uses 2m as GI+ responses and 2H as GF response. The question we're asking in this thread is backwards. The 2C response leaves the most room for sorting out GI vs GF auctions and the 2H response leaves the least. In a sense, the 2C response is very similar to a semiforcing NT...except that it is forcing. The fact that we're using 2C as GF is a holdover from what we're doing for Midchart because it handles all GF auctions.

It is of course a triviality to observe that a response of 2♣ leaves more room than any other 2 level response.
You can use this room in any way you like.
However, I have yet to see the response structure, where game and slam bidding will not suffer when GI and GF hands use the same 2/1 start.
This is most obvious when responder has a GI or a GF one-suiter. One rebid has to suffer unless you use a lot of artificiality.
If you have GI hands some sequences must be non forcing thereafter, which of course means strong hands have to do something else.
This invariably not only hurts your slam bidding but also finding the right game.
A typical example is 1♠-2♣-2♥-3NT because 2NT would not be forcing. Opener does not know what to do with 5-5 or 6-4 in the majors.

My personal preferences:

2♣:game forcing, not promising clubs, but denying a good 5 card diamond suit. Opener has to rebid 2♦ with all balanced or semi-balanced hand. After 2♦, 2♥ (after 1♠) by responder shows a game force with at least 5 hearts.
2♦:game forcing with a good 5 card diamond suit or better
2♥: GI with hearts, not forcing. I do not like to bid 1NT (semi forcing) with game invitational hands holding a heart suit.

Rainer Herrmann

[straube]

rhm, on 2013-May-18, 03:56, said:

My personal preferences:

2♣:game forcing, nor promising clubs, but denying a good 5 card diamond suit. Opener has to rebid 2♦ with all balanced or semi-balanced hand. After 2♦, 2♥ (after 1♠) by responder shows a game force with at least 5 hearts.
2♦:game forcing with a good 5 card diamond suit or better
2♥: GI with hearts, not forcing. I do not like to bid 1NT (semi forcing) with game invitational hands holding a heart suit.

Rainer Herrmann

1. Your preferences would be fine for Midchart but not GCC. If you respond 2C with Ax AKQxxx Qxxx x then your 2C fails the natural test.
2. We're able to relay after 2C and opener's first rebid. I'm suggesting that we include a few GI hands in that response that are shown by not relaying. When responder wants to GF his first bid is S1. In this respect, we would be similar to what Meckwell are doing.

[rhm]

straube, on 2013-May-18, 06:07, said:

1. Your preferences would be fine for Midchart but not GCC. If you respond 2C with Ax AKQxxx Qxxx x then your 2C fails the natural test.

I am not an expert for GCC and I admit I do not care since I rarely play in the US.
Nevertheless my understanding is that 2♣ as a game forcing artificial response is allowed as long as you do not play a relay system thereafter.
The GCC is not clear what relay means in this context. Some call Stayman a relay bid.
Taking your example Ax AKQxxx Qxxx x: If I bid 2♣, that is certainly artificial and if I show my hearts over 2♦ (balanced or semi-balanced, call that a default bid like rebidding a major in Lawrence style) and opener continues with natural bids over 2♥ that is not what I would consider a relay system.

Rainer Herrmann

[straube]

rhm, on 2013-May-18, 07:33, said:

I am not an expert for GCC and I admit I do not care since I rarely play in the US.
Nevertheless my understanding is that 2♣ as a game forcing artificial response is allowed as long as you do not play a relay system thereafter.
The GCC is not clear what relay means in this context. Some call Stayman a relay bid.
Taking your example Ax AKQxxx Qxxx x: If I bid 2♣, that is certainly artificial and if I show my hearts over 2♦ (balanced or semi-balanced, call that a default bid like rebidding a major in Lawrence style) and opener continues with natural bids over 2♥ that is not what I would consider a relay system.

Rainer Herrmann

2C as an artificial GF is only legal for the Midchart and it "may not be part of a relay system". I understand why you wouldn't care about US regulations, but the OP is specifically looking for a GCC legal structure.

[straube]

Any suggestions along these lines, Adam?

1S-
.....2C-GI+ 3+
..........2D-bal, 4+D or 5+C
...............2H-artificial GF relay
...............2S-GI side diamonds
...............2N-GI w/5+ clubs
...............3C-GI, better clubs
...............3D-?
...............3H-GI canape (6H)
..........2H-4+H
...............2S-artificial GF relay
...............2N-nf
...............3C-GI clubs
...............3H-nf, likely four hearts
..........2S-4 only clubs (this is a switch)
...............2N-GF relay
...............3C-nf
...............3H-GI canape (6H)
..........etc-6S and 12+ hcps

.....2D-GI+ w/ usually 5 diamonds but can be canape. May be GF but more often GI hands
..........2H-other
...............2S-artificial GF
...............2N-GI
...............3C-GI
...............3D-GI
...............3H-GI canape (6H)
..........2S-4+H
...............2N-GI misfit
...............3C-artificial GF
...............3D-GI
...............3H-nf
..........2N-6S?
..........3C-max fit?
..........3D-min fit?

.....2H-GF 5+H

.....2S-simple raise

.....2N-limit raise

[rhm]

straube, on 2013-May-18, 07:44, said:

2C as an artificial GF is only legal for the Midchart and it "may not be part of a relay system". I understand why you wouldn't care about US regulations, but the OP is specifically looking for a GCC legal structure.

I looked at http://www.acbl.org/...ntion-Chart.pdf

There it says under

ACBL GENERAL CONVENTION CHART

* * unless specifically listed below, methods are disallowed * *

RESPONSES AND REBIDS

3.CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES WHICH GUARANTEE GAME FORCING OR BETTER VALUES. May NOT be part of a relay system.

It says under

ACBL MID-CHART

**unless specifically listed below, and (for 6-20) on the ACBL Defense Database site, methods are disallowed**

1. All of the ACBL General Convention Chart.
2. Relay (tell me more) systems that promise game-forcing values.

What do I misinterpret?

Rainer Herrmann

[glen]

rhm, on 2013-May-18, 09:42, said:

... What do I misinterpret?

Nothing, you are correct

One scheme:
1M-2♣: any GF without 3+ in M
1M-2♦: any GF with 3+ in M
1♠-2♥: 6+♥s, invitational or constructive

[straube]

rhm, on 2013-May-18, 09:42, said:

I looked at http://www.acbl.org/...ntion-Chart.pdf

There it says under

ACBL GENERAL CONVENTION CHART

* * unless specifically listed below, methods are disallowed * *

RESPONSES AND REBIDS

3.CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES WHICH GUARANTEE GAME FORCING OR BETTER VALUES. May NOT be part of a relay system.

It says under

ACBL MID-CHART

**unless specifically listed below, and (for 6-20) on the ACBL Defense Database site, methods are disallowed**

1. All of the ACBL General Convention Chart.
2. Relay (tell me more) systems that promise game-forcing values.

What do I misinterpret?

Rainer Herrmann

You're right about that. Sorry.

[straube]

glen, on 2013-May-18, 10:47, said:

Nothing, you are correct

One scheme:
1M-2♣: any GF without 3+ in M
1M-2♦: any GF with 3+ in M
1♠-2♥: 6+♥s, invitational or constructive

That's interesting. What are the followups, especially for 1M-2C? Also, how do you handle GI with a minor?

[blackshoe]

rhm, on 2013-May-18, 07:33, said:

The GCC is not clear what relay means in this context. Some call Stayman a relay bid.

From the ACBL Alert Regulation: "Relay: A bid which does not guarantee any specific suit; partner is requested to make the next-step bid (usually) or make another descriptive bid if appropriate (e.g., a diamond bid which usually shows hearts but may not have hearts in some cases)".

Perhaps not as helpful as it might be, but it's better than nothing. By this definition Stayman is a relay.

[akhare]

blackshoe, on 2013-May-18, 12:18, said:

From the ACBL Alert Regulation: "Relay: A bid which does not guarantee any specific suit; partner is requested to make the next-step bid (usually) or make another descriptive bid if appropriate (e.g., a diamond bid which usually shows hearts but may not have hearts in some cases)".

Perhaps not as helpful as it might be, but it's better than nothing. By this definition Stayman is a relay.

At the risk of derailing the original post:

• It's clear that a 2-level artificial GF response to 1M is 100% GCC legal
  
• The question is whether responder's subsequent artificial bids can be classified as a "relay system".

For example, after 1♠ - 2♣ (artificial GF) - 2♥ (natural) would a artificial 2♠ (further ask) be considered as a relay? If not, what is responder allowed to bid that *would* make it GCC legal?

[awm]

The relays have to start before opener rebid for it to be a relay system. So if 2c is artificial GF and openers next bid is not a nearly-auto 2d you are fine.

In fact for my original post I kind of assumed you were playing 2c as gf with possible relays to follow. If this is the case you can handle 5422 type hands easily enough via that path, so the problem hands are unbal invites where you do not want to be passed in 1nt and unbal GF types where responder really would rather show than ask...

Of course you could also go to an "all 2/1s natural inv+" approach as Sam and I do, or to a mid-chart transfer based approach.

[steve2005]

akhare, on 2013-May-17, 19:26, said:

Given the following constraints:

• 2♣ response canonical GF

What does canonical GF mean?

[blackshoe]

akhare, on 2013-May-18, 13:54, said:

At the risk of derailing the original post:

• It's clear that a 2-level artificial GF response to 1M is 100% GCC legal
  
• The question is whether responder's subsequent artificial bids can be classified as a "relay system".

For example, after 1♠ - 2♣ (artificial GF) - 2♥ (natural) would a artificial 2♠ (further ask) be considered as a relay? If not, what is responder allowed to bid that *would* make it GCC legal?

awm, on 2013-May-18, 14:13, said:

The relays have to start before opener rebid for it to be a relay system. So if 2c is artificial GF and openers next bid is not a nearly-auto 2d you are fine.

In fact for my original post I kind of assumed you were playing 2c as gf with possible relays to follow. If this is the case you can handle 5422 type hands easily enough via that path, so the problem hands are unbal invites where you do not want to be passed in 1nt and unbal GF types where responder really would rather show than ask...

Of course you could also go to an "all 2/1s natural inv+" approach as Sam and I do, or to a mid-chart transfer based approach.

2♣ is a relay. If you disagree, go back and read the definition I posted. Given 2♣ is a relay, an artificial 2♠ as a further ask (also a relay) makes responder's two bids a sequence of relays. The sequence started with 2♣, responder's first bid, which was before opener's rebid, so this is a relay system, and is not legal under the GCC.

[awm]

blackshoe, on 2013-May-18, 16:08, said:

2♣ is a relay. If you disagree, go back and read the definition I posted. Given 2♣ is a relay, an artificial 2♠ as a further ask (also a relay) makes responder's two bids a sequence of relays. The sequence started with 2♣, responder's first bid, which was before opener's rebid, so this is a relay system, and is not legal under the GCC.

The 2♣ bid is not a relay. While it doesn't show a specific suit, this is not sufficient to be a relay (else virtually all artificial bids are relays). The key in the definition you gave is: partner is requested to make the next-step bid (usually) or make another descriptive bid if appropriate; here opener is just making a natural rebid and is hardly "requested to make the next-step bid."

[straube]

1S

.....1N-semiforcing

.....2C-3+ clubs, GI+, could be short with big fit or no 5-cd red suit
..........2D-bal or 4+ diamonds or 5+ clubs
...............2H-gf relay
...............2S-nf side diamonds
...............2N-nf other (could be hearts)
...............3C-nf clubs
..........2H-hearts
...............2S-gf relay
...............2N-nf
...............3C-nf clubs
...............3H-nf hearts
..........2S-4 clubs
...............2N-gf relay
...............3C-clubs
..........etc-gf, 6 spades and 12+

.....2D-5+ diamonds, GI+
..........2H-other
...............2S-artificial gf
...............2N-nf, 4 of round suit
...............3C-nf, 5 clubs
...............3D-nf, 6 diamonds
..........2S-4 hearts
...............2N-nf
...............3C-artificial gf
..........2N-6 spades, gf
..........3C-5 clubs, gf
..........3D-fit, gf
..........3H-5/5, gf
..........3S-?

.....2H-5+ hearts, gf

.....2S-simple raise

.....2N-limit raise, 3+

.....3C-WJS

.....3D-mixed raise

.....3H-GI six hearts

.....3S-weak raise