[JLOGIC]

When I played with Steve Weinstein, he also suggested that 4N should not be a natural bid, with a bad hand you just go back to 4H and play the 5-2. This might make it harder for responder if he has a slam force but pick a slam or w/e will always be there.

In those cases, if there is a bid under 4M it is slam try in that major. First step over 4M is keycard in the minor. Next step keycard for major. Remaining step if exists slam try in minor.

EG.

2N 3H
3S 4D

4H=slam try in major, 4S=sign off, 4N=keycard diamonds, 5C Keycard in spades. 5D=minimum but obv a diamond fit.

2N 3H
3S 4C

4D=slam try in spades, 4H=keycard in clubs, 4S=signoff, 4N=KC spades 5C=min with club fit

2N 3D
3H 4C

4D=slam try in hearts, 4H=signoff, 4S=keycard clubs, 4N=keycard hearts, 5C=min with club fit

2N 3D
3H 4D

4S=keycard diamonds 4N=keycard hearts, 5C=slam try diamonds 5D=min with diamond fit

Now you can all laugh how keycard obsessed americans are and I doubt it is a gnasher style method but you always have plenty of room to keycard and stop/try for 7 (the keycard ask by the 2n opener forces to slam opposite 2 with the queen in all cases I think which is obviouly plenty opposite a 2N opener who is keycarding).

[JLOGIC]

Zelandakh, on 2013-May-15, 02:41, said:

One solution is to play transfers on the previous round.

2NT - 3♦; 3♥
==
3♠ = cog (nat 3NT) or clubs or strong one-suited slam try
3NT = 4 spades, non-forcing
4♣ = diamonds
4♦ = 5-5 majors
4♥ = mild slam try

After 2NT - 3♦; 3♥ - 3♠
==
3NT = 2 hearts (now 4♣ = 4 clubs; 4♦ = 5 clubs; 4♥ = strong slam try
4♣ = 3+ hearts, 4+ clubs
4♦ = 3+ hearts, <4 clubs, good hand for slam
4♥ = 3+ hearts, <4 clubs, bad hand for slam

You do need an alternative route for showing 5♥4♠ and slam interest if you were previously using 3♦->3♠ for this but that is not a problem in most systems.

I also play this with Bob but in the context of a non puppet system (so smolen) so we just play:

2N 3D
3H 3S=clubs, 4C=diamonds, not needing anything for 5H and 4S.

This alleviates some of these problems, especially over hearts and diamonds which is the least room auction, and also allows for playing in 3N opposite hearts and clubs which is nice. Seems like a no brainer to play this unless you do something else very useful with your 3D 3H 3S (I have heard of some people playing that it shows a 4 card minor with 4m direct showing 5 which also seems very good).

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2013-May-16, 12:33, said:

Now you can all laugh how keycard obsessed americans are and I doubt it is a gnasher style method

I think a Keycard-based approach is sensible in a cramped auction like this. There isn't enough space to exchange information about all three of overall strength/suitability, honour-card location, and Keycards, so something has to go.

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2013-May-16, 12:37, said:

Seems like a no brainer to play this unless you do something else very useful with your 3D 3H 3S

Catch22 and I use that as showing four hearts, so that we can play 3♣ as showing both majors, so that we can avoid giving away information about opener's hand unnecessarily.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Andy... do you have an example hand ? ( Opener/Responder )

[gnasher]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-May-16, 13:15, said:

Andy... do you have an example hand ? ( Opener/Responder )

Of what?

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on 2013-May-16, 02:33, said:

Because:
- I'm trying to solve the same problem for similar sequences where responder shows 4M-5m. These usually end with bidding the major.

You can play transfers here too, particularly if you are prepared to give up playing in 4M

2NT - 3NT (= xfer to clubs, forces 4C), then
4D = 5C, 4H
4H = 5C, 4D
4S = 5C, 4D (with 5-5 minors xfer to diamonds first)
4NT = 5332 invite


Opener completes the xfer to play in the major, anything else is a cue for the minor, except 4NT which is a sign-off.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

gnasher, on 2013-May-16, 14:03, said:

Of what?

I thought that maybe your opening post was based on a particular hand you encountered .

[TWO4BRIDGE]

gnasher, on 2013-May-16, 09:12, said:

Another possibility is to play the cheaper unbid suit (by opener) as two-suits Keycard. Is that a good idea?

It seems helpful to have the player doing the asking know what trumps are, and knowing more about the location of the partnership's honours. Also, opener can delay a decision about trumps until he knows which queens we have.

The obvious disadvantage is that opener doesn't know how strong responder is.

Actually, I think that the "two-suits Keycard" ( ie 6 ace-RKC ) is a very good idea .
In fact, I think I'll change my post # 8 to show that .

[jallerton]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-May-16, 14:20, said:

You can play transfers here too, particularly if you are prepared to give up playing in 4M

2NT - 3NT (= xfer to clubs, forces 4C), then....................

This doesn't fit in with Gnasher's 'minimise information leakage' scheme where 2NT-3NT is non-forcing with 4 spades.

[jallerton]

gnasher, on 2013-May-14, 16:13, said:

In a sequence like
2NT-3♦
3♥-4♦
I've always played that 4♠ and 5♣ are cue-bids for an unknown suit, usually followed by a muddled auction ending in a guess at the right contract.

Has anyone got any better methods?

I'm not keen on methods where the trump suit is ambiguous. I think the simple natural methods here are:

4♥ agrees hearts [now Responder can use RKCB if appropriate]
4NT = I don't like either of your suits
Others= cues, agreeing diamonds

A potential improvement is to use the bids agreeing diamonds as key card responses rather than cues. There's only room for 3 steps below slam, so you can't always find out about the trump queen, but could count the K♥ as a sixth key card, e.g.

4♠ = agrees ♦, 3 or 6 key cards
5♣ = agrees ♦, 1 or 4 key cards
5♦ = agrees ♦, 2 or 5 key cards
5♥ = agrees ♦, 5 key cards + trump queen

The low numbers of key cards are virtually impossible, but included for completeness/aid to memory.

I think the hand which has defined its strength should be telling partner about key cards, not asking.

[JLOGIC]

What if you have a good hand for hearts? Is 4H forcing? If so not being able to stop in 4H seems like a big loss. If not, you have no bids for good or really good heart hands.

[JLOGIC]

Your point about the hand that is defined in strength should be responding (and also the balanced hand). However, when that hand is much stronger, I wonder if that is true. It seems like that hand is more likely to be able to count tricks opposite a response/have more features it cannot show via keycard response than the other hand. And conversely, the weak hand can probably show important features via keycard response, maybe not the queen of the suit partner is not coming in but perhaps partner will be able to show the king or third round control ask that suit.

However, as responders shape is not defined obviously it might not be able to show a 5-5 or a 6-4 definitively via keycard. I am not sure, I'm not sure you're right about that one though even though what you say is usually true, but I would also not be surprised if you were right obv.

[gnasher]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-May-16, 15:55, said:

I thought that maybe your opening post was based on a particular hand you encountered .

The question was provoked by this hand:

---

Nothing bad happened on this occasion: we had a slightly messy auction to 6♥, which made. We didn't bid the slightly safer 6NT because responder didn't know there was a top club opposite, and opener didn't know that the diamonds were solid enough not to need ruffing. If opener had held ♠A instead of ♠KJ, I think we'd have missed the grand slam.

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-May-16, 14:20, said:

You can play transfers here too, particularly if you are prepared to give up playing in 4M

2NT - 3NT (= xfer to clubs, forces 4C), then
4D = 5C, 4H
4H = 5C, 4D
4S = 5C, 4D (with 5-5 minors xfer to diamonds first)
4NT = 5332 invite

Opener completes the xfer to play in the major, anything else is a cue for the minor, except 4NT which is a sign-off.

As Jeffrey says, that's not quite what we play, but even if it was I don't see how second-round transfers would help with this problem*. You are using 4♦, 4♥ and 4♠ each to show a specific suit. Where you have room, you use the next step to agree that suit. You can do that whether the bid was a transfer or not.

In fact, your suggestion has a defect: after ...4♠ there is no room to agree either suit without committing to slam. If you were playing these bids as natural, in all sequences you would have two cue-bids below five of the second suit. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul, and leaving Peter destitute.

* There is, of course, a much better reason to play transfers in your auction: it gets the contract played by the right hand. For the same reason, in our methods we should switch 4♥ and 4♠ (but we're not going to).

[Zelandakh]

gnasher, on 2013-May-17, 00:57, said:

The question was provoked by this hand:

How are you playing your 3♣ sequences to make this a problem? In a Puppet structure you can start
2NT - 3♣;
3♦ - 3♠;
4♣ = 4 hearts and good hand, and after this it should be simple. If Opener were to deny 4 hearts then you can continue 4♦ without any ambiguity, and still lower than the equivalent sequence starting with 3♠/3NT.

With normal Stayman,
2NT - 3♣;
3♥ - 3♠ does a similar job. Again, if Opener denies 4 hearts then continuing with 4♦ leaves us well placed.

I know that transferring to the minor with 4M5m hands is trendy right now but it just does not seem right to me when we already have devoted our cheapest response to finding 4 card majors.

[gnasher]

Zelandakh, on 2013-May-17, 01:41, said:

How are you playing your 3♣ sequences to make this a problem?

We play 3♣ as both majors, or a slam try with four spades and a four-card minor. This is so as to avoid giving away information about opener's hand unnecessarily when it's a game hand.

Quote

In a Puppet structure you can start
2NT - 3♣;
3♦ -
3♠;
4♣ = 4 hearts and good hand, and after this it should be
simple. If Opener were to deny 4 hearts then you can continue 4♦
without any ambiguity, and still lower than the equivalent sequence starting
with 3♠/3NT.

With normal Stayman,
2NT - 3♣;
3♥
- 3♠ does a similar job. Again, if Opener denies 4 hearts then continuing
with 4♦ leaves us well placed.

Regardless of what you play, there is a need to distinguish between 4-4 and 4-5 shapes. I can't see how you can do that using only the 3♣ bid.

Quote

I know that transferring to the minor with 4M5m hands is trendy right now

I don't think it's a modern thing, particularly. I was persuaded to play that by my first serious partner in the late 1980s.

[PhilKing]

I have a generic method that covers all these two-suited four-level situations plus 32 competitive (mostly leaping Michaels variants) sequences:

4M/5m = nat NF. 4M covers most sign-offs. 4N is never natural. 5m is encouraging if no "flag" is available

bids below 4M = if 1 step available, flag for M, if 2 lower = M higher = m

4M+1 = RKC M

4M+2 = Flag for m if not natural

5♦ = if not nat, then it is RKC for clubs

5♥+ = RKC response for the minor. This applies in all equivalent sequences and works! In the 2NT sequences, responses count the major suit king.

When we flag for the minor, partner can bid 5m+1 as keycard.

That above may cause indigestion, so I will give an example. After 2NT-3♦-3♥4♣:

4♦ = enc hearts
4♥ = sign-off. Can be 2.
4♠ = RKC hearts
4NT = enc clubs (now 5♦ = sand wedge)
5♣ = nat (now 5♦ = sand wedge)
5♦ = RKC clubs
5♥ = 1 or 4 of six key cards for clubs
5♠ = 0 or 3 of 6 key cards
5NT = 2 or 5 without
6♣ = 2 or 5 with

Or after (3♥)-4♣(NLM)-(Pass):

4♦ = enc spades
4♥ = enc clubs
4N = RKC spades
5♦ = nat
5♥ = RKC response for clubs

All sequences fit the rules, so do not need to be listed separately.

a) (2♦multi)-4m (2 sequences)
b) (2M)-4m (4 sequences)
c) (2♥)-3♥-3♠-4m (2 sequences)
d) (2♥)-3♥-3N-4m (2 sequences)
e) (2♠)-3♠-3NT-4m (2 sequences)
f) (3♥)-4m (2 sequences)
g) (3♠)-4m (2 sequences)
h) (3♦)-4♣-4♦-4M (it's the exception that fits the rules) (2 sequences)
i) 1♣-(2M)-4♦ (2 sequences)
j) 1♦-(2M)-4m (4sequences)
k) 2NT-3♠-3NT (2 sequences)
l) 2NT-3NT-4♣ (2 sequences)
m) 1N-(2M)-4m (4 sequences)

[Zelandakh]

With Puppet you can handle hearts and a minor by utilising the unused bids: 2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 3oM; 3NT - 4♥/♠ = slam try with 4 of corresponding minor. This does give up on using, for example, 2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 3♥; 3NT - 4♥ as 46xy though, so it is not free. With (23)44, you are pretty much stuck with using some sort of Baron in most methods that do not have MSS available.

When playing normal Stayman you are not surprisingly better off here after a 3♦ response. For example, you could play that 2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 3♠ is Baron and move the 5♥4♠ hands into the 3♦ transfer (as in the first post). Or play that as 4+ clubs with 4♣ (instead of 3♠) as 4 diamonds and 4♦ as 5 diamonds. A 3♥ response is ok too, with transfers again being one answer: 2NT - 3♣; 3♥, then 3♠ = 4+ clubs; 3NT = 4 spades, cog; 4♣ = 5+ diamonds; 4♦ = agrees hearts; 4♠ = 4 diamonds. The problem comes after a 3♠ response. Here the only way of handling 4♥4m slam try hands seems to be via 4NT, which is not ideal. I do not have a solution for this other than changing away from normal Stayman.

Talking of which, I have not come across your 3♣ response before but it looks like it is underutilised. Perhaps there is space within the follow-ups to handle an additional hand type here (4♠5m?) to make things easier on the other sequences.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

gnasher, on 2013-May-17, 00:57, said:

The question was provoked by this hand:

---

Nothing bad happened on this occasion: we had a slightly messy auction to 6♥, which made. We didn't bid the slightly safer 6NT because responder didn't know there was a top club opposite, and opener didn't know that the diamonds were solid enough not to need ruffing. If opener had held ♠A instead of ♠KJ, I think we'd have missed the grand slam.

Thanks for posting the hand which is not what I expected given the bidding in your original post .
However, Responder's hand certainly is enough for slam somewhere .
But, I too, wonder how you use the 3C response ( over a 2NT open ) ?