[gnasher]

In a sequence like
2NT-3♦
3♥-4♦
I've always played that 4♠ and 5♣ are cue-bids for an unknown suit, usually followed by a muddled auction ending in a guess at the right contract.

Has anyone got any better methods?

[CSGibson]

I've been playing with this problem - what I've been experimenting with is using the lowest cue to "flag" slam interest in the minor, and any other cue to be for the major, with 4N as a regressive offer to play. I have no real results to report yet, I haven't trotted it out in a partnership setting.

[PhilKing]

Well, you could look at the Kokishian flags and scrambles thing in IPBM from the early 80s - I could find it if you need. One of the Canadian pairs wee playing it in Shanghai.

http://info.ecatsbri...aley-habert.pdf

Note 30.

[nige1]

gnasher, on 2013-May-14, 16:13, said:

In a sequence like
2NT-3♦
3♥-4♦
I've always played that 4♠ and 5♣ are cue-bids for an unknown suit, usually followed by a muddled auction ending in a guess at the right contract. Has anyone got any better methods?

Maybe not "better" but a simple method, dating back to the 1960s, is automatic aces. There are six keycards (here the keys are the aces and the red kings). Step-responses skirt round natural sign-offs. e.g.

• 4♥/4N/5♦ = Natural but unenthusiastic.
• 4♠ = 3 keys.
• 5♣ = 4 keys.
• 5♥ = 5 keys.

You can tweak less cramped auctions to give suit-preference and more definition (e.g trump queens).

To save space, you may consider condensing 4♥ and 4N into 4♥.

[PhilKing]

Why not GWTP and just play GF transfers?

[Zelandakh]

One solution is to play transfers on the previous round.

2NT - 3♦; 3♥
==
3♠ = cog (nat 3NT) or clubs or strong one-suited slam try
3NT = 4 spades, non-forcing
4♣ = diamonds
4♦ = 5-5 majors
4♥ = mild slam try

After 2NT - 3♦; 3♥ - 3♠
==
3NT = 2 hearts (now 4♣ = 4 clubs; 4♦ = 5 clubs; 4♥ = strong slam try
4♣ = 3+ hearts, 4+ clubs
4♦ = 3+ hearts, <4 clubs, good hand for slam
4♥ = 3+ hearts, <4 clubs, bad hand for slam

You do need an alternative route for showing 5♥4♠ and slam interest if you were previously using 3♦->3♠ for this but that is not a problem in most systems.

[fromageGB]

Or you can play 4♦ as Zel's cooperative slam try - opener bids next step if not fitting diamonds, and with support shows aces/keycards in higher steps. If a good heart fit is not ruled out by the 3♥ completion, you need to allow opener to correct the diamond contract to hearts.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

gnasher, on 2013-May-14, 16:13, said:

In a sequence like
2NT-3♦
3♥-4♦

Responder should have at least a 5-5 to go past 3NT ... and wants to play in one of these suits:
After 4♦:
??
4♥ = agree ♥
and the next 4 steps can be ( EDIT :) 6-Ace RKC-showing agreeing ♦:

Opener is in the narrow range of 20-21, so Responder remains Captain.

If ♥ agreed, then Responder can either pass, bid 4S = RKC or 4NT = Exclusion ( ♠-void )... EDIT: again, use 6 Ace-RKC .

If ♦ agreed ( via the RKC-showing ) , then Responder can place the contract or ask for the ♦Q ( next step ) or K-ask ( 2nd-step ).

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2013-May-16, 17:57

[FrancesHinden]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-May-15, 12:58, said:

Responder should have at least a 5-5 to go past 3NT ... and wants to play in one of these suits:

No

[FrancesHinden]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-14, 17:52, said:

Why not GWTP and just play GF transfers?

I was going to say that.
You can then combine that with second round transfers as Zel says :

2NT - 3D
3H = 3/4 card support, then

3S = relay to 3NT, then 4C = 5-5 reds might be quite light slam try, 4D = 5-5 roundeds similarly
3NT = 4 clubs, slam try
4C = 4 diamonds, slam try
4D = 5332 slam try in hearts
4S = keycard

(our 2-suited major hands go through 3C)

[the hog]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-May-15, 12:58, said:

Responder should have at least a 5-5 to go past 3NT ... and wants to play in one of these suits:
After 4♦:

Disagree strongly. Why does this need to be a 5/5? A strong 5-4, even 6-4 may have a much better play in a possible 4-4 fit.

[aguahombre]

the hog, on 2013-May-15, 21:51, said:

Why does this need to be a 5/5? A strong 5-4, even 6-4 may have a much better play in a possible 4-4 fit.

Yes, and this ---allowing for responder to only have four of the minor---is what complicates the OP issue.

When 5-4 reds is possible, opener must be able to bid 4NT with 2-3. We simplify the strain issue by opener just bidding 4H if hearts are agreed, and letting responder go forth if she wants to; offsuit cues agree diamonds. The problem with either/or is that opener cannot cue hearts later if the strain should be diamonds.

Makes life simpler, if not optimal.

[gnasher]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-14, 17:52, said:

Why not GWTP and just play GF transfers?

Because:
- I'm trying to make a small unintrusive improvement rather than a large-scale change.
- I'm trying to solve the same problem for similar sequences where responder shows 4M-5m. These usually end with bidding the major.
- For ease of memory, I want to play the same methods after a 2NT opening and a natural 2NT overcall (even though theoretically it's better to play two different schemes).

[nigel_k]

If opener cue bids they have diamonds. Otherwise they bid either 4♥ or 4NT.

Since opener is narrowly limited in strength and didn't super accept they won't often have a hand with hearts that really has to cue bid. And you will have the big advantage of always knowing what trumps are. If opener does happen to have a hand that has really improved, e.g. Axx AKx KQJ Axxx they can bid 5♥.

[cherdano]

gnasher, on 2013-May-14, 16:13, said:

In a sequence like
2NT-3♦
3♥-4♦
I've always played that 4♠ and 5♣ are cue-bids for an unknown suit, usually followed by a muddled auction ending in a guess at the right contract.

Has anyone got any better methods?

Surely
4♠ = slam interest in hearts,
5♣ = slam interest in diamonds
is better than muddled cues? Cheapest cue = slam interest in the major is the natural agreement to make, as after 2N 3D 3H 4C it is the only logical one.

[gnasher]

cherdano, on 2013-May-16, 08:18, said:

Surely
4♠ = slam interest in hearts,
5♣ = slam interest in diamonds
is better than muddled cues? Cheapest cue = slam interest in the major is the natural agreement to make, as after 2N 3D 3H 4C it is the only logical one.

I think I prefer "cheaper cue = slam interest in the next suit above that in rotation", because that balances the space more evenly between the two sequences. For example, with hearts and diamonds it gives us at least one cheap cue-bid in each sequence.

It also works better with our 4M-5m sequences. For example, when responder has shown diamonds and spades we're at the 4♠ level, so we would want 5♣ to agree diamonds.

And it covers the auctions where responder shows both minors.

[gnasher]

Another possibility is to play the cheaper unbid suit (by opener) as two-suits Keycard. Is that a good idea?

It seems helpful to have the player doing the asking know what trumps are, and knowing more about the location of the partnership's honours. Also, opener can delay a decision about trumps until he knows which queens we have.

The obvious disadvantage is that opener doesn't know how strong responder is.

[cherdano]

Actually, why is opener even allowed to go beyond 4♥ in your original sequence? When did responder promise slam interest?

[aguahombre]

cherdano, on 2013-May-16, 09:25, said:

Actually, why is opener even allowed to go beyond 4♥ in your original sequence? When did responder promise slam interest?

Are you saying the 4D was a pointless noise requiring opener to bid 4H, or are you saying 4D was telling opener he can pass or correct?

[gnasher]

cherdano, on 2013-May-16, 09:25, said:

Actually, why is opener even allowed to go beyond 4♥ in your original sequence? When did responder promise slam interest?

I think introducing a minor should show slam interest. There isn't enough space to cater for the small set of hands where responder doesn't have slam interest, doesn't want to play 3NT, and thinks that 5♦ will play better than a 5-2 heart fit.